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I read back with interest/curiosity and a bit of sadness the last time that an "open source printer" idea was discussed on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/ite

I read back with interest/curiosity and a bit of sadness the last time that an "open source printer" idea was discussed on HN: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24786721 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24786721 Are we at the same stage today? An open source ink printer would be particularly hard to make because of the nozzle, and laser ones are complicated because of the drums? Just curious if someone in 10 or 20 years might come back to these threads and reminisce at this unattainable open hardware ideal as they grumble about HPCanon's latest dystopian ""innovation"".

userbinator 3y ago
An open source ink printer would be particularly hard to make because of the nozzle, and laser ones are complicated because of the drums? I think "open source" doesn't need to mean "every component from scratch", much like a lot of open-source hardware relies on MCUs whose designs are decidedly not open. There's been some attempts at using existing inkjet cartridges with integrated printheads: http://spritesmods.com/?art=magicbrush&page=1 http://spritesmods.com/?art=magicbrush&page=1 http://spritesmods.com/?art=inker http://spritesmods.com/?art=inker
MostlyStable 3y ago
I've encountered that thread before, but I re-read it anyways, and I had a thought: A fully open source printer (hardware and everything) is likely still infeasible....but how hard would it be to design and sell an open source control board replacement? According to that thread, the hardest thing about an open source printer is the patents on all the hardware, but I'm pretty sure that it is legal (in the US at least), to buy a printer and swap out the control board if one so desires. And I'm also pretty sure that, as long as you are not using copyrighted firmware or something, that it would be legal to sell such a motherboard with new, open source software on it. This moves the goalpost from "design a completely new printer" to "create new control firmware and software". The downside is that you lose the full repairability options one would have if the entire thing was open source/open hardware, but honestly, hardware doesn't seem to be the primary problem with modern printers. This feels like a 95% as good solution with <5% of the difficulty, unless I'm missing something.
- MostlyStable 3y ago
  As I got further through the thread: someone had the same idea 3 years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24788932 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24788932
- gregsadetsky 3y ago
  Right, it can definitely be a good approach (that did work for openwrt) But I do feel like (in the case of printers) building on top of hardware from hostile companies is too risky. And yeah, you wouldn’t be able to get replacement parts. It’d be a devil’s bargain. I’m definitely envisioning/dreaming of something as open and tweak-able as a 3d printer. That world is full of customization and innovation. And it seems to be truly built from the ground up. To me that’s the goal.
- justinclift 3y ago
  > but I'm pretty sure that it is legal (in the US at least), to buy a printer and swap out the control board if one so desires. If such a thing ever started to get traction, I'd expect HP would likely bury the people involved in litigation. Just off the top of my head they could probably start with the DMCA angle. "Your control board is a bypass for our DRM". :/ Probably similar to how console modders get arrested and thrown in jail.
  - kalleboo 3y ago
    Printer toner was a landmark DMCA case! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexmark_International,_Inc._v._Static_Control_Components,_Inc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexmark_International,_Inc._v.....
- lodovic 3y ago
  Are patents on printer technology still relevant? Printers were booming in the nineties but as I haven't seen a single piece of innovation in the last 20 years my guess is that all important patents have expired by now.
- TheOtherHobbes 3y ago
  I'd guess the physical print engine is a standard off-the-shelf piece of hardware made in bulk in China, and very likely all the mfrs use the same standard part/s. So unless there's some kind of lock-in agreement, there would be no issue with a bulk order from some other party. Although given how printing is becoming a legacy tech, I doubt there would be enough interest to make it worthwhile today.
bsder 3y ago
A more interesting question is "Why isn't there a Chinese off-brand laser printer?" I can buy practically anything off-brand from Alibaba, but not laser printers. Seems like a strange omission.
- dragonwriter 3y ago
  Is it because printers are low margin devices where the actual profit is in consumables (in the consumer market) and service contracts which include consumables (in the enterprise market), so there is nothing for an off-brand supplier to undercut?
- bpye 3y ago
  There is Pantum? https://global.pantum.com/ https://global.pantum.com/ Not exactly off-brand but at least a few years ago was the cheapest option.
gnopgnip 3y ago
There are open source projects to integrate off the shelf ink cartridges with 3d printers http://nerdcreationlab.com/projects/inkshield/ http://nerdcreationlab.com/projects/inkshield/ A budget 3d printer is like $200, plus $70 for the inkshield. And it isn't really a good printer. A consumer laser printer for half that will do 25 pages per minute actually feed in the paper reliably and the toner lasts longer
deleted 3y ago
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userbinator 3y ago

An open source ink printer would be particularly hard to make because of the nozzle, and laser ones are complicated because of the drums? I think "open source" doesn't need to mean "every component from scratch", much like a lot of open-source hardware relies on MCUs whose designs are decidedly not open. There's been some attempts at using existing inkjet cartridges with integrated printheads: http://spritesmods.com/?art=magicbrush&page=1 http://spritesmods.com/?art=magicbrush&page=1 http://spritesmods.com/?art=inker http://spritesmods.com/?art=inker

MostlyStable 3y ago

I've encountered that thread before, but I re-read it anyways, and I had a thought: A fully open source printer (hardware and everything) is likely still infeasible....but how hard would it be to design and sell an open source control board replacement? According to that thread, the hardest thing about an open source printer is the patents on all the hardware, but I'm pretty sure that it is legal (in the US at least), to buy a printer and swap out the control board if one so desires. And I'm also pretty sure that, as long as you are not using copyrighted firmware or something, that it would be legal to sell such a motherboard with new, open source software on it. This moves the goalpost from "design a completely new printer" to "create new control firmware and software". The downside is that you lose the full repairability options one would have if the entire thing was open source/open hardware, but honestly, hardware doesn't seem to be the primary problem with modern printers. This feels like a 95% as good solution with <5% of the difficulty, unless I'm missing something.

MostlyStable 3y ago
As I got further through the thread: someone had the same idea 3 years ago: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24788932 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24788932
gregsadetsky 3y ago
Right, it can definitely be a good approach (that did work for openwrt) But I do feel like (in the case of printers) building on top of hardware from hostile companies is too risky. And yeah, you wouldn’t be able to get replacement parts. It’d be a devil’s bargain. I’m definitely envisioning/dreaming of something as open and tweak-able as a 3d printer. That world is full of customization and innovation. And it seems to be truly built from the ground up. To me that’s the goal.
justinclift 3y ago
> but I'm pretty sure that it is legal (in the US at least), to buy a printer and swap out the control board if one so desires. If such a thing ever started to get traction, I'd expect HP would likely bury the people involved in litigation. Just off the top of my head they could probably start with the DMCA angle. "Your control board is a bypass for our DRM". :/ Probably similar to how console modders get arrested and thrown in jail.
- kalleboo 3y ago
  Printer toner was a landmark DMCA case! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexmark_International,_Inc._v._Static_Control_Components,_Inc https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lexmark_International,_Inc._v.....
lodovic 3y ago
Are patents on printer technology still relevant? Printers were booming in the nineties but as I haven't seen a single piece of innovation in the last 20 years my guess is that all important patents have expired by now.
TheOtherHobbes 3y ago
I'd guess the physical print engine is a standard off-the-shelf piece of hardware made in bulk in China, and very likely all the mfrs use the same standard part/s. So unless there's some kind of lock-in agreement, there would be no issue with a bulk order from some other party. Although given how printing is becoming a legacy tech, I doubt there would be enough interest to make it worthwhile today.

bsder 3y ago

A more interesting question is "Why isn't there a Chinese off-brand laser printer?" I can buy practically anything off-brand from Alibaba, but not laser printers. Seems like a strange omission.

dragonwriter 3y ago
Is it because printers are low margin devices where the actual profit is in consumables (in the consumer market) and service contracts which include consumables (in the enterprise market), so there is nothing for an off-brand supplier to undercut?
bpye 3y ago
There is Pantum? https://global.pantum.com/ https://global.pantum.com/ Not exactly off-brand but at least a few years ago was the cheapest option.

gnopgnip 3y ago

There are open source projects to integrate off the shelf ink cartridges with 3d printers http://nerdcreationlab.com/projects/inkshield/ http://nerdcreationlab.com/projects/inkshield/ A budget 3d printer is like $200, plus $70 for the inkshield. And it isn't really a good printer. A consumer laser printer for half that will do 25 pages per minute actually feed in the paper reliably and the toner lasts longer

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]