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As someone who graduated as a SWE from an NZ university; around 50% of my cohort moved over to Australia and around 20-30% somewhere else; I can count the numbe

As someone who graduated as a SWE from an NZ university; around 50% of my cohort moved over to Australia and around 20-30% somewhere else; I can count the number of friends I have left in the country on one hand (four year degree). NZ salaries are actually laughable compared to overseas where you're earning at least 25% more for the same work and a probably lower cost of living

slt2021 3y ago
is it because NZ has immigration program inviting IT professionals? do you know if there is big influx of IT immigrants in NZ?
- rodgerd 3y ago
  The majority, perhaps even super-majority of the people I work with are immigrants. It's not a problem. The problem is that New Zealand employers are absolutely allergic to paying their staff; they are cruising on the idea that "New Zealand is a great place to live, it doesn't matter if you're paid less, the lifestyle benefits make up for it".
  - klipt 3y ago
    I assume manny immigrants work just long enough to get a NZ passport then use the freedom of movement granted to work in Australia? Then once they get an Australian passport, they can use it to work in the US on an E-3 visa :-)
    - 0xADEADBEE 3y ago
      You don’t even need to do that. Once you have Residency (distinct from Permanent Residency and Citizenship - the one with the passport) you are allowed to start your own company which you can use to contract yourself out to Australian companies for annual amounts double those of a lot of NZ roles. (My last role paid 240-250K NZD depending on exchange rate; the local role prior to that: 120K NZD) Didn’t know about E3 visa route. Very interesting, thank you
    - TMWNN 3y ago
      I've heard that South Africans who can't make it to Australia directly use NZ as the stopover until, as you said, they can use the Trans-Tasman Travel Arrangement to move to Australia. I wouldn't be surprised if their (and others') ultimate goal is the US. That's the case with Canada, where my understanding is that FAANG offices are staffed mostly with those who cannot (and often will never get) a US visa, plus the odd local who doesn't want to move to the US for personal or family reasons.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    >The problem is that New Zealand employers are absolutely allergic to paying their staff; they are cruising on the idea that "New Zealand is a great place to live, it doesn't matter if you're paid less, the lifestyle benefits make up for it". It's exactly the same in Austria (the one with schnitzel, not kangaroos). Employers will tell you, "you don't need more than 60k/year because the quality of life is so good, you know we keep winning most livable city in the world", to the point where I think the whole winning most livable city in the world is some paid BS advertising from Austria to sucker in foreigners willing to lowball themselves and fill in the so called "skill shortage", up until they move here and realize a house costs 1 million Euros, stuff is more expensive than in Germany while salaries are lower and then they fuck off.
    - depereo 3y ago
      There are places in NZ (Nelson for example) that semi-formalize this as the 'sunshine dividend' making up the balance of payment compared to other towns or cities. i.e suggesting because a place has nice weather that you should be paid less.
      - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
        There is a strong correlation that I noticed in Europe as well between a place begin nice to live with nice weather which tend to have lower pay while depressing places with shit weather having higher pay. Basically the nice cities with nice weather attract a lot of candidates meaning employers don't need to pay so much, while employers in cloudy, windy, rainy and depressing cities need to pay good because otherwise there's no reason to move there. It's just supply and demand. I could get a nice pay bump by moving to Netherlands or the UK, but I really can't stomach the weather in that part of Europe, as someone who like going outside for walks in the sun. Sometimes there's more to life than counting more money, and life is too short to spend it living somewhere where you don't like just to accumulate money.
        techsupporter 3y ago
        > I could get a nice pay bump by moving to Netherlands or the UK, but I really can't stomach the weather in that part of Europe, as someone who like going outside for walks in the sun. Sometimes there's more to life than counting more money Weather is one of those intensely personal things. I am very much outside of the norm, especially when it comes to sun. I've lived in Seattle my whole life and right now it is in the mid-80s and not a cloud in the sky; the whole week is predicted to be like this. The people I know have filtered, as they do every year, into two groups. One group is posting on social media about how they're out to "enjoy the sun" and "such marvelous weather". The other, like me, is sitting inside waiting for the grey to return. (Anecdotally to my friend group, people who move here tend to be in the first group; people who were born around here in the second.) Which is to say, I would happily take a pay cut to get away from the sun so I suppose I'm glad the "gloomier" places tend to pay more.
  - verve_rat 3y ago
    Yup. NZ employers claim there is a labour shortage, but in almost all cases I think NZ has a serious lack of business management skills. Basic ideas like staff retention and margins seem to be completely foreign to a bunch of "business leaders".
sien 3y ago
As an Australian I'd like to say thank you to NZ Universities. It's really true. We see a lot of New Zealanders applying for jobs in Australia and they are often good candidates.
xyzzy123 3y ago
I am also an economic migrant NZ -> Australia. Salary for me was something like 30% - 50% better with housing / cost of living about the same. I still love NZ but to keep progressing in my career I felt it was really helpful to be able to access a bigger market.
verve_rat 3y ago
As a Kiwi still living here I didn't feel like I was getting a fair deal until I started working remotely for a US company paying AU rates. Making the move from an NZ employer to (essentially) an AU employer got me a ~40% pay rise. I'm now afraid I've priced my self out of the NZ market and will have a rude landing if I'm forced back into the NZ market (you never know, things happen). But it is frankly ridiculous how far NZ employers have their heads in the clouds. If remote work stays around and more US companies don't mind a few hours overlap with the West Coast timezone to get access to a native English speaking, Western culture, talent pool... well, I think those NZ employers will start banging the immigration drum a lot harder.
- jamiepenney 3y ago
  > I'm now afraid I've priced my self out of the NZ market and will have a rude landing if I'm forced back into the NZ market (you never know, things happen). Just go contracting - I charge probably on the low end for my experience but take home almost 2.5x what I used to as a salaried worker for less time on the clock. As long as you keep a decent chunk of cash (which is easier since you're making more) then you can ride out short-term gaps between contracts. That being said, I haven't been without work for the six years I've been contracting so haven't had to dip into it yet.
- EdwardDiego 3y ago
  Yep, I'm priced out of the NZ market too, work remotely for a US remote only company who try to pay roughly equivalent salaries for equivalent positions. When the recruiter told me the offered salary, I thought it was a typo, scam, or someone was smoking crack. And the NZ software employers who cry the most about "a skills shortage" are ones that locals won't work for because they're known shit employers. Looking at you, Orion Health.

slt2021 3y ago

is it because NZ has immigration program inviting IT professionals? do you know if there is big influx of IT immigrants in NZ?

rodgerd 3y ago
The majority, perhaps even super-majority of the people I work with are immigrants. It's not a problem. The problem is that New Zealand employers are absolutely allergic to paying their staff; they are cruising on the idea that "New Zealand is a great place to live, it doesn't matter if you're paid less, the lifestyle benefits make up for it".
- klipt 3y ago
  I assume manny immigrants work just long enough to get a NZ passport then use the freedom of movement granted to work in Australia? Then once they get an Australian passport, they can use it to work in the US on an E-3 visa :-)
  - 0xADEADBEE 3y ago
    You don’t even need to do that. Once you have Residency (distinct from Permanent Residency and Citizenship - the one with the passport) you are allowed to start your own company which you can use to contract yourself out to Australian companies for annual amounts double those of a lot of NZ roles. (My last role paid 240-250K NZD depending on exchange rate; the local role prior to that: 120K NZD) Didn’t know about E3 visa route. Very interesting, thank you
  - TMWNN 3y ago
    I've heard that South Africans who can't make it to Australia directly use NZ as the stopover until, as you said, they can use the Trans-Tasman Travel Arrangement to move to Australia. I wouldn't be surprised if their (and others') ultimate goal is the US. That's the case with Canada, where my understanding is that FAANG offices are staffed mostly with those who cannot (and often will never get) a US visa, plus the odd local who doesn't want to move to the US for personal or family reasons.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  >The problem is that New Zealand employers are absolutely allergic to paying their staff; they are cruising on the idea that "New Zealand is a great place to live, it doesn't matter if you're paid less, the lifestyle benefits make up for it". It's exactly the same in Austria (the one with schnitzel, not kangaroos). Employers will tell you, "you don't need more than 60k/year because the quality of life is so good, you know we keep winning most livable city in the world", to the point where I think the whole winning most livable city in the world is some paid BS advertising from Austria to sucker in foreigners willing to lowball themselves and fill in the so called "skill shortage", up until they move here and realize a house costs 1 million Euros, stuff is more expensive than in Germany while salaries are lower and then they fuck off.
  - depereo 3y ago
    There are places in NZ (Nelson for example) that semi-formalize this as the 'sunshine dividend' making up the balance of payment compared to other towns or cities. i.e suggesting because a place has nice weather that you should be paid less.
    - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
      There is a strong correlation that I noticed in Europe as well between a place begin nice to live with nice weather which tend to have lower pay while depressing places with shit weather having higher pay. Basically the nice cities with nice weather attract a lot of candidates meaning employers don't need to pay so much, while employers in cloudy, windy, rainy and depressing cities need to pay good because otherwise there's no reason to move there. It's just supply and demand. I could get a nice pay bump by moving to Netherlands or the UK, but I really can't stomach the weather in that part of Europe, as someone who like going outside for walks in the sun. Sometimes there's more to life than counting more money, and life is too short to spend it living somewhere where you don't like just to accumulate money.
      - techsupporter 3y ago
        > I could get a nice pay bump by moving to Netherlands or the UK, but I really can't stomach the weather in that part of Europe, as someone who like going outside for walks in the sun. Sometimes there's more to life than counting more money Weather is one of those intensely personal things. I am very much outside of the norm, especially when it comes to sun. I've lived in Seattle my whole life and right now it is in the mid-80s and not a cloud in the sky; the whole week is predicted to be like this. The people I know have filtered, as they do every year, into two groups. One group is posting on social media about how they're out to "enjoy the sun" and "such marvelous weather". The other, like me, is sitting inside waiting for the grey to return. (Anecdotally to my friend group, people who move here tend to be in the first group; people who were born around here in the second.) Which is to say, I would happily take a pay cut to get away from the sun so I suppose I'm glad the "gloomier" places tend to pay more.
- verve_rat 3y ago
  Yup. NZ employers claim there is a labour shortage, but in almost all cases I think NZ has a serious lack of business management skills. Basic ideas like staff retention and margins seem to be completely foreign to a bunch of "business leaders".

sien 3y ago

As an Australian I'd like to say thank you to NZ Universities. It's really true. We see a lot of New Zealanders applying for jobs in Australia and they are often good candidates.

xyzzy123 3y ago

I am also an economic migrant NZ -> Australia. Salary for me was something like 30% - 50% better with housing / cost of living about the same. I still love NZ but to keep progressing in my career I felt it was really helpful to be able to access a bigger market.

verve_rat 3y ago

As a Kiwi still living here I didn't feel like I was getting a fair deal until I started working remotely for a US company paying AU rates. Making the move from an NZ employer to (essentially) an AU employer got me a ~40% pay rise. I'm now afraid I've priced my self out of the NZ market and will have a rude landing if I'm forced back into the NZ market (you never know, things happen). But it is frankly ridiculous how far NZ employers have their heads in the clouds. If remote work stays around and more US companies don't mind a few hours overlap with the West Coast timezone to get access to a native English speaking, Western culture, talent pool... well, I think those NZ employers will start banging the immigration drum a lot harder.

jamiepenney 3y ago
> I'm now afraid I've priced my self out of the NZ market and will have a rude landing if I'm forced back into the NZ market (you never know, things happen). Just go contracting - I charge probably on the low end for my experience but take home almost 2.5x what I used to as a salaried worker for less time on the clock. As long as you keep a decent chunk of cash (which is easier since you're making more) then you can ride out short-term gaps between contracts. That being said, I haven't been without work for the six years I've been contracting so haven't had to dip into it yet.
EdwardDiego 3y ago
Yep, I'm priced out of the NZ market too, work remotely for a US remote only company who try to pay roughly equivalent salaries for equivalent positions. When the recruiter told me the offered salary, I thought it was a typo, scam, or someone was smoking crack. And the NZ software employers who cry the most about "a skills shortage" are ones that locals won't work for because they're known shit employers. Looking at you, Orion Health.