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New Anti-Consumer MacBook Pros – Teardown and Repair Assessment [video]

53 points by sharno 3y ago

Moldoteck 3y ago
Welp, maybe rysen framework will be good enough in battery life to motivate me switch from a macbook)
gregjor 3y ago
Almost no consumer products get designed and manufactured in a way that allows self-repair or upgrade. Cars? TVs? Appliances? Phones? No. What off-the-shelf products do we own that an average person can repair or upgrade? People who need or want that feature can find laptops they can tinker with. Everyone else — the majority of consumers — will opt for price and convenience.
- ActorNightly 3y ago
  It's not about tinkering. People want the option to have their stuff repaired without getting scammed. It's well known that Apple techs will scam people in replacing whole motherboards rather than fix the small circuit issue at fault. Same thing for John Deer equipment that requires payment for specialized techs to come out. On the other hand with most cars, you can take it to a mechanic who can diagnose the issue, and order the respective part.
  - FireBeyond 3y ago
    Or outright replace the computer. My MBA had a damaged charging circuit. Battery was fine. Computer ran fine on AC, passed their diagnostics. Just couldn't deliver a charge to the battery. I expected $2-300 after parts and labor. "Looks like that will probably run you $950. How about we talk about getting you into a new Mac instead?" No. It got repurposed into a DAW for my stepdaughter.
    - gregjor 3y ago
      Apple won’t fix that kind of thing. They don’t have the facilities or people and it wouldn’t make economic sense to them. But you can find independent repair shops. I had that exact problem on an MBA and found a guy in Bangkok who just does Apple repairs. $15.
      - inamberclad 3y ago
        If an independent repair man a la Louis Rossman can make a living doing component level repair on macs, then I'd expect the margin to be good enough that the original company could do it as well. However, the economic sense to Apple is about selling new products, and an actual repair program would cut into product sales.
        gregjor 3y ago
        I can make a good living writing custom code, but I can’t scale my business for various reasons. Lots of things can turn a good profit at small scale but not work out at Apple scale. Best Buy got into the service and repair business at scale when they bought GeekSquad. It kind of flopped for them. And you can find no end of complaints about incompetent service and even scams from Best Buy.
        whyagaintango 3y ago
        For your previous comment. Do I assume you are a genX? - one can give tons of reasons for non-repairable devices but the planet has only so much resources. Eventually Apple will enter the group of terrible companies like exxon/BP. Sure Tim Cook will be having the billions but if more companies like tesla is following apple's strategy if vertical integration Either govts will interfere Or Planet is trashed. - TV, phones have always been repairable. Even recently some one posted repairing a sony Trinitron. - even if apple doesnot want to do the repair of a chip, capacitor they can make them available - or not sue if 3rd party does it - Louis rossman can replace a failed charging chip from an old logic/mother board. He/others like ifixit only tell apple to supply it or allow others to manufacture.
  - gregjor 3y ago
    It makes no economic sense to Apple to replace components on a robot-soldered board. Not a scam, just the realities of manufacturing. Almost everything we buy has the same issue. Consumers prefer paying less. AppleCare available too. I’ve had auto mechanics try to scam me. Never Apple. John Deere isn’t selling common consumer products. Pretty bad comparisons. Try comparing to Samsung or Lenovo or Microsoft (Surface).
    - dotnet00 3y ago
      It makes no economic sense to Apple to replace components because it's more profitable to sell an entire part. The proof is in those parts being repairable for far less from third parties (when Apple does not needlessly lock the part down or when third parties have discovered a workaround).
      - gregjor 3y ago
        That’s my point. Apple sells luxury consumer electronics and they make spectacular profits. They aren’t a public service. We can debate the ethics of that, I’m just stating the economic reality to refute the idea that some conspiracy is at work. Try getting a Louis Vuitton bag repaired. Same thing. Self-repair doesn’t intersect their market.
        dotnet00 3y ago
        Apple however has far more consequences to consumers in doing so, as it isn't actually a luxury brand, it's nearly half the entire American smartphone market and a significant portion of the laptop market. As a result, selling expensive devices and making repairs expensive and wasteful has a much larger overall impact on consumers as a whole than the same for Louis Vuitton bags. I'm not seeing how this isn't them conspiring to make repair difficult. Even just plainly accepting your reasoning, they perceive themselves as a luxury brand, thus they conspire to make repairs exceptionally difficult because they think that somehow contributes to their luxuriousness.
        3y ago
- mistrial9 3y ago
  massive consumer goods markets are not resulting in the best goods for the most people, they are making the most entrapment, the most addictive products as refinement -- perhaps a natural result when profit is the motive in command-and-control transactions. secondly - long repairable lifetimes are direct targets for quick-turnaround profit attacks from ambitious and pressured decision makers. Mature company brand reputation purchased with borrowed cash and a change in the product and the warranty, is common. All that takes is someone with enough attitude to justify it. It is easy to justify, behind closed doors. Throw away products, long food miles, lock-in service agreements, are consumer goods markets gone wrong.
  - gregjor 3y ago
    Maybe. Or just consumers repeatedly choosing price and convenience and immediacy over quality or long-term considerations.
bitwize 3y ago
Again, read this Mastodon thread by Hector Martin, who forgot more than most right-to-repair advocates know about how Apple devices work internally, about this issue: https://social.treehouse.systems/@marcan/110803356645502548 https://social.treehouse.systems/@marcan/110803356645502548 Unlike every other laptop vendor, Apple actually gives a shit about the security of their systems, and does much, much more to harden a MacBook against firmware-level exploits than anyone else in the industry. That includes moving the controller, firmware, and configuration/calibration data on-die to the M2 and having signed, verified firmware. Apple is simply built different as a company, and their concern for security and integrity of your personal data is simply UNMATCHED in the industry.
- helf 3y ago
  [dead]
- dotnet00 3y ago
  Apple is well aware that the average user does not need that level of hardening, while also being aware that it gives them easy cover for unethical practices when it comes to repairing their hardware. It's the "think of the children" equivalent for making things repairable.
  - olliej 3y ago
    I know right? they should do what other manufacturers do: sell insecure hardware to consumers, and charge 10x extra for bolted-on-later security for people who "need it". After all, there's never been articles about exploiting consumer devices through firmware and driver flaws, right? Nor have there ever been attacks caused by plugging in peripherals. You can either have secure hardware, or tamperable hardware, you can't have both.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - dotnet00 3y ago
      Security, for the average person, is not all or nothing, unless you're suggesting that every Apple user also automatically gains perfect password management practices and all software running on it becomes unexploitable. It's funny how Apple must not be criticized for its unethical practices, its hardware is secure while other devices are insecure, all over highly targeted exploit vectors that do not apply to the vast majority of Apple users, while all the low-hanging, wide impact exploits remain just as open. Just another part of Apple's 'reality distortion field' - lock down the hardware, thwart repair efforts, tell people it's for their own good and you get people acting like Apple devices are secure from the threats which matter most.
chazeon 3y ago
It's really painful to look at all those screws. A few days ago I opened up a ThinkCentre m900. There is only one screw and you can get access to RAM, and SSD.
penjelly 3y ago
the most insane examples ive heard of are the parts are ID'd so you cant swap out generic parts for even tiny repairs, the os will warn you youre using unregistered parts and prevent use
- Gigachad 3y ago
  Warning you is good, that's putting info in the users hand. Preventing use is the problem. If you buy a device second hand, or you bring it in for repair, you want to know if you are getting genuine parts or not.
- fragmede 3y ago
  It's to destroy the parts market. If your laptop gets stolen, even if the thief can't get into your data, even if the thief can't use your laptop as-is, without a parts serial number database, it's still valuable for parts. By denying the use of the parts, it makes stolen laptops worthless. If a laptop's even worth $50 in parts, it's worth it to the destitute and desperate.

53 points by sharno 3y ago

Welp, maybe rysen framework will be good enough in battery life to motivate me switch from a macbook)

Almost no consumer products get designed and manufactured in a way that allows self-repair or upgrade. Cars? TVs? Appliances? Phones? No. What off-the-shelf products do we own that an average person can repair or upgrade? People who need or want that feature can find laptops they can tinker with. Everyone else — the majority of consumers — will opt for price and convenience.

ActorNightly 3y ago
It's not about tinkering. People want the option to have their stuff repaired without getting scammed. It's well known that Apple techs will scam people in replacing whole motherboards rather than fix the small circuit issue at fault. Same thing for John Deer equipment that requires payment for specialized techs to come out. On the other hand with most cars, you can take it to a mechanic who can diagnose the issue, and order the respective part.
- FireBeyond 3y ago
  Or outright replace the computer. My MBA had a damaged charging circuit. Battery was fine. Computer ran fine on AC, passed their diagnostics. Just couldn't deliver a charge to the battery. I expected $2-300 after parts and labor. "Looks like that will probably run you $950. How about we talk about getting you into a new Mac instead?" No. It got repurposed into a DAW for my stepdaughter.
  - gregjor 3y ago
    Apple won’t fix that kind of thing. They don’t have the facilities or people and it wouldn’t make economic sense to them. But you can find independent repair shops. I had that exact problem on an MBA and found a guy in Bangkok who just does Apple repairs. $15.
    - inamberclad 3y ago
      If an independent repair man a la Louis Rossman can make a living doing component level repair on macs, then I'd expect the margin to be good enough that the original company could do it as well. However, the economic sense to Apple is about selling new products, and an actual repair program would cut into product sales.
      - gregjor 3y ago
        I can make a good living writing custom code, but I can’t scale my business for various reasons. Lots of things can turn a good profit at small scale but not work out at Apple scale. Best Buy got into the service and repair business at scale when they bought GeekSquad. It kind of flopped for them. And you can find no end of complaints about incompetent service and even scams from Best Buy.
        whyagaintango 3y ago
        For your previous comment. Do I assume you are a genX? - one can give tons of reasons for non-repairable devices but the planet has only so much resources. Eventually Apple will enter the group of terrible companies like exxon/BP. Sure Tim Cook will be having the billions but if more companies like tesla is following apple's strategy if vertical integration Either govts will interfere Or Planet is trashed. - TV, phones have always been repairable. Even recently some one posted repairing a sony Trinitron. - even if apple doesnot want to do the repair of a chip, capacitor they can make them available - or not sue if 3rd party does it - Louis rossman can replace a failed charging chip from an old logic/mother board. He/others like ifixit only tell apple to supply it or allow others to manufacture.
- gregjor 3y ago
  It makes no economic sense to Apple to replace components on a robot-soldered board. Not a scam, just the realities of manufacturing. Almost everything we buy has the same issue. Consumers prefer paying less. AppleCare available too. I’ve had auto mechanics try to scam me. Never Apple. John Deere isn’t selling common consumer products. Pretty bad comparisons. Try comparing to Samsung or Lenovo or Microsoft (Surface).
  - dotnet00 3y ago
    It makes no economic sense to Apple to replace components because it's more profitable to sell an entire part. The proof is in those parts being repairable for far less from third parties (when Apple does not needlessly lock the part down or when third parties have discovered a workaround).
    - gregjor 3y ago
      That’s my point. Apple sells luxury consumer electronics and they make spectacular profits. They aren’t a public service. We can debate the ethics of that, I’m just stating the economic reality to refute the idea that some conspiracy is at work. Try getting a Louis Vuitton bag repaired. Same thing. Self-repair doesn’t intersect their market.
      - dotnet00 3y ago
        Apple however has far more consequences to consumers in doing so, as it isn't actually a luxury brand, it's nearly half the entire American smartphone market and a significant portion of the laptop market. As a result, selling expensive devices and making repairs expensive and wasteful has a much larger overall impact on consumers as a whole than the same for Louis Vuitton bags. I'm not seeing how this isn't them conspiring to make repair difficult. Even just plainly accepting your reasoning, they perceive themselves as a luxury brand, thus they conspire to make repairs exceptionally difficult because they think that somehow contributes to their luxuriousness.
        3y ago
mistrial9 3y ago
massive consumer goods markets are not resulting in the best goods for the most people, they are making the most entrapment, the most addictive products as refinement -- perhaps a natural result when profit is the motive in command-and-control transactions. secondly - long repairable lifetimes are direct targets for quick-turnaround profit attacks from ambitious and pressured decision makers. Mature company brand reputation purchased with borrowed cash and a change in the product and the warranty, is common. All that takes is someone with enough attitude to justify it. It is easy to justify, behind closed doors. Throw away products, long food miles, lock-in service agreements, are consumer goods markets gone wrong.
- gregjor 3y ago
  Maybe. Or just consumers repeatedly choosing price and convenience and immediacy over quality or long-term considerations.

bitwize 3y ago

Again, read this Mastodon thread by Hector Martin, who forgot more than most right-to-repair advocates know about how Apple devices work internally, about this issue: https://social.treehouse.systems/@marcan/110803356645502548 https://social.treehouse.systems/@marcan/110803356645502548 Unlike every other laptop vendor, Apple actually gives a shit about the security of their systems, and does much, much more to harden a MacBook against firmware-level exploits than anyone else in the industry. That includes moving the controller, firmware, and configuration/calibration data on-die to the M2 and having signed, verified firmware. Apple is simply built different as a company, and their concern for security and integrity of your personal data is simply UNMATCHED in the industry.

helf 3y ago
[dead]
dotnet00 3y ago
Apple is well aware that the average user does not need that level of hardening, while also being aware that it gives them easy cover for unethical practices when it comes to repairing their hardware. It's the "think of the children" equivalent for making things repairable.
- olliej 3y ago
  I know right? they should do what other manufacturers do: sell insecure hardware to consumers, and charge 10x extra for bolted-on-later security for people who "need it". After all, there's never been articles about exploiting consumer devices through firmware and driver flaws, right? Nor have there ever been attacks caused by plugging in peripherals. You can either have secure hardware, or tamperable hardware, you can't have both.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - dotnet00 3y ago
    Security, for the average person, is not all or nothing, unless you're suggesting that every Apple user also automatically gains perfect password management practices and all software running on it becomes unexploitable. It's funny how Apple must not be criticized for its unethical practices, its hardware is secure while other devices are insecure, all over highly targeted exploit vectors that do not apply to the vast majority of Apple users, while all the low-hanging, wide impact exploits remain just as open. Just another part of Apple's 'reality distortion field' - lock down the hardware, thwart repair efforts, tell people it's for their own good and you get people acting like Apple devices are secure from the threats which matter most.

chazeon 3y ago

It's really painful to look at all those screws. A few days ago I opened up a ThinkCentre m900. There is only one screw and you can get access to RAM, and SSD.

penjelly 3y ago

the most insane examples ive heard of are the parts are ID'd so you cant swap out generic parts for even tiny repairs, the os will warn you youre using unregistered parts and prevent use

Gigachad 3y ago
Warning you is good, that's putting info in the users hand. Preventing use is the problem. If you buy a device second hand, or you bring it in for repair, you want to know if you are getting genuine parts or not.
fragmede 3y ago
It's to destroy the parts market. If your laptop gets stolen, even if the thief can't get into your data, even if the thief can't use your laptop as-is, without a parts serial number database, it's still valuable for parts. By denying the use of the parts, it makes stolen laptops worthless. If a laptop's even worth $50 in parts, it's worth it to the destitute and desperate.