5 ms·

Protecting a system sometimes means to restrict access of malicious actors who want to destroy this same system. It's similar to the paradox of tolerance. Whe

Protecting a system sometimes means to restrict access of malicious actors who want to destroy this same system. It's similar to the paradox of tolerance. When you want to live by some rules, you have to defend these rules. Otherwise, malicious actors will use up all available resources, game the system by every available loophole, and then rewrite the rules of law.

Manuel_D 3y ago
Does AfD want to "destroy" German democracy? I really don't see any attempt to substantiate this claim, beyond nebulous statements like "... they warned in an analysis that the party is actively and methodically trying 'to implement its racist and Right-wing extremist goals'". What are these extremist goals? Presumably less immigration, but that's hardly destroying democracy. As the article explains, implementing such a ban would put the existing German political establishment in a group comprised of many unsavory folks: > Germany has a troubled history of parties being banned, with Otto von Bismarck, the country’s first chancellor, banning the Social Democrats for disloyalty to the Kaiser. > When the Nazis came to power, they banned all other parties. > The German Democratic Republic (East Germany) also banned other parties not affiliated with the ruling Socialist Unity Party. Maybe actually try and address the concerns AfD supporters have, instead of simply trying to ban the party. The 20% of AfD supporters are still going to vote and will probably become even more radicalized as this ban would substantiate the claims that Germany does not want to fairly address their concerns.
- purerandomness 3y ago
  > Maybe actually try and address the concerns AfD supporters have I suppose you're German and you're familiar with the failed attempt of Friedrich Merz trying exactly that with his CDU? The trick populists use is that you make something seem to be something everybody would want, of course, and demand for it to be implemented, without having actual solutions. How do you address a party demanding that the government should stop poisoning citizens with chemtrails? [1] Would you agree that Germany needs to restrict "uncontrolled immigration"? I would. Who wouldn't?! But wait. What's "uncontrolled"? Who gets to decide on the definition? If we had a definition, do we actually have uncontrolled immigration, and if we do have it, what exactly is the problem with it, and why would we want to solve it? But see, they're not in the problem-solving business. They don't care. They're in the "stir up fear and promise we have a solution" business, which is a very successful business model. If 20% of your population believe that there's 5G in your vaccine and the government wants to kill half of your friends, you need to fix other things, like lack of education. A ban on a malicious actor trying to game the system might be a temporary hack to win time. [1] https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/afd-in-sachsen-staatskanzlei-muss-sich-nach-kleiner-anfrage-mit-chemtrails-befassen-a-5d295473-0a4c-4cda-a958-2e9ef1b61f6d https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/afd-in-sachsen-st...
  - memefrog 3y ago
    The main parties in Germany refuse to engage with AFD's concerns about the massive influx of fake refugees.
    - purerandomness 3y ago
      They also refuse to engage with AfD's concerns about chemtrail poisonings. [1] Just so we're on the same page, could you give me a definition of what a fake refugee is, how many fake ones Germany currently has, a statistic of the development of fake refugees vs. genuine refugees over the last 5 years, and the mechanism by which the fake ones (not the real ones, of course) cause harm to Germany that needs fixing? If you could provide that, and truly no main party in Germany is currently engage on that data, I'm voting AfD next time. [1] https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/afd-in-sachsen-staatskanzlei-muss-sich-nach-kleiner-anfrage-mit-chemtrails-befassen-a-5d295473-0a4c-4cda-a958-2e9ef1b61f6d https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/afd-in-sachsen-st...
      - Manuel_D 3y ago
        > Just so we're on the same page, could you give me a definition of what a fake refugee is The more common term is "fraudulent asylum seeker". It's defined as anyone that fabricates something about their background in order to qualify for refugee status. This could be any number of things, but the most common are: * lying about persecution. For instance saying the government wants to kill you, when in reality there is no such threat. * lying about country of origin. Like saying one is fleeing Syria when in reality they are economic migrants from peaceful countries. https://foreignpolicy.com/2015/10/07/the-men-who-pretend-to-be-syrian-refugees-greece/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2015/10/07/the-men-who-pretend-to-... * lying about age. Some countries have more permissive rules for minors, so adults lie and say they are children. Poland studied this, and found about 40% had lied about their age: https://www.polsatnews.pl/wiadomosc/2019-09-18/niemieccy-eksperci-zbadali-nieletnich-imigrantow-40-proc-z-nich-okazalo-sie-doroslymi-mezczyznami/?ref=kafle https://www.polsatnews.pl/wiadomosc/2019-09-18/niemieccy-eks... The fact that some governments aren't bothering to try and detect asylum fraud means there's no available data. But that doesn't mean it's not happening. It's like a company that has no sexual harassment reporting mechanism claiming no harassment happens because it has never had any reports of harassment.
c_o_n_v_e_x 3y ago
Yes, but are the actors actually malicious to the system or to the current administrators of said system?

Manuel_D 3y ago

Does AfD want to "destroy" German democracy? I really don't see any attempt to substantiate this claim, beyond nebulous statements like "... they warned in an analysis that the party is actively and methodically trying 'to implement its racist and Right-wing extremist goals'". What are these extremist goals? Presumably less immigration, but that's hardly destroying democracy. As the article explains, implementing such a ban would put the existing German political establishment in a group comprised of many unsavory folks: > Germany has a troubled history of parties being banned, with Otto von Bismarck, the country’s first chancellor, banning the Social Democrats for disloyalty to the Kaiser. > When the Nazis came to power, they banned all other parties. > The German Democratic Republic (East Germany) also banned other parties not affiliated with the ruling Socialist Unity Party. Maybe actually try and address the concerns AfD supporters have, instead of simply trying to ban the party. The 20% of AfD supporters are still going to vote and will probably become even more radicalized as this ban would substantiate the claims that Germany does not want to fairly address their concerns.

purerandomness 3y ago
> Maybe actually try and address the concerns AfD supporters have I suppose you're German and you're familiar with the failed attempt of Friedrich Merz trying exactly that with his CDU? The trick populists use is that you make something seem to be something everybody would want, of course, and demand for it to be implemented, without having actual solutions. How do you address a party demanding that the government should stop poisoning citizens with chemtrails? [1] Would you agree that Germany needs to restrict "uncontrolled immigration"? I would. Who wouldn't?! But wait. What's "uncontrolled"? Who gets to decide on the definition? If we had a definition, do we actually have uncontrolled immigration, and if we do have it, what exactly is the problem with it, and why would we want to solve it? But see, they're not in the problem-solving business. They don't care. They're in the "stir up fear and promise we have a solution" business, which is a very successful business model. If 20% of your population believe that there's 5G in your vaccine and the government wants to kill half of your friends, you need to fix other things, like lack of education. A ban on a malicious actor trying to game the system might be a temporary hack to win time. [1] https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/afd-in-sachsen-staatskanzlei-muss-sich-nach-kleiner-anfrage-mit-chemtrails-befassen-a-5d295473-0a4c-4cda-a958-2e9ef1b61f6d https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/afd-in-sachsen-st...
- memefrog 3y ago
  The main parties in Germany refuse to engage with AFD's concerns about the massive influx of fake refugees.
  - purerandomness 3y ago
    They also refuse to engage with AfD's concerns about chemtrail poisonings. [1] Just so we're on the same page, could you give me a definition of what a fake refugee is, how many fake ones Germany currently has, a statistic of the development of fake refugees vs. genuine refugees over the last 5 years, and the mechanism by which the fake ones (not the real ones, of course) cause harm to Germany that needs fixing? If you could provide that, and truly no main party in Germany is currently engage on that data, I'm voting AfD next time. [1] https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/afd-in-sachsen-staatskanzlei-muss-sich-nach-kleiner-anfrage-mit-chemtrails-befassen-a-5d295473-0a4c-4cda-a958-2e9ef1b61f6d https://www.spiegel.de/politik/deutschland/afd-in-sachsen-st...
    - Manuel_D 3y ago
      > Just so we're on the same page, could you give me a definition of what a fake refugee is The more common term is "fraudulent asylum seeker". It's defined as anyone that fabricates something about their background in order to qualify for refugee status. This could be any number of things, but the most common are: * lying about persecution. For instance saying the government wants to kill you, when in reality there is no such threat. * lying about country of origin. Like saying one is fleeing Syria when in reality they are economic migrants from peaceful countries. https://foreignpolicy.com/2015/10/07/the-men-who-pretend-to-be-syrian-refugees-greece/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2015/10/07/the-men-who-pretend-to-... * lying about age. Some countries have more permissive rules for minors, so adults lie and say they are children. Poland studied this, and found about 40% had lied about their age: https://www.polsatnews.pl/wiadomosc/2019-09-18/niemieccy-eksperci-zbadali-nieletnich-imigrantow-40-proc-z-nich-okazalo-sie-doroslymi-mezczyznami/?ref=kafle https://www.polsatnews.pl/wiadomosc/2019-09-18/niemieccy-eks... The fact that some governments aren't bothering to try and detect asylum fraud means there's no available data. But that doesn't mean it's not happening. It's like a company that has no sexual harassment reporting mechanism claiming no harassment happens because it has never had any reports of harassment.

c_o_n_v_e_x 3y ago

Yes, but are the actors actually malicious to the system or to the current administrators of said system?