7 ms·

I've been delving deep into the structure of toki pona and noticed some intriguing gaps: Abstract concepts - The language seems to skate over complex philosoph

I've been delving deep into the structure of toki pona and noticed some intriguing gaps: Abstract concepts - The language seems to skate over complex philosophical or scientific ideas. You won't find an easy way to express ideas like "justice" or "quantum". It's a testament to its minimalist design, but it also means some concepts are lost in translation. Specific flora/fauna - While you can use terms like "kili", "kala", or "soweli" to describe plants, fish, or mammals, respectively, don't expect to convey specific species such as "maple tree" or "cat". It's a broad brush approach that lacks granularity. Intensive modifiers - Toki pona leans hard on the word "mute" for intensifiers. This simplification might hinder nuanced expressions, as there's a big gap between "mute" and a neutral descriptor. Collective nouns - The language only really has "kulupu" to describe collectives. So, distinguishing between, say, a "flock" and a "crowd" might get tricky. Idiomatic phrases - A repertoire of idioms or set phrases for common topics would make conversations feel more culturally rich and engaging. It's one thing to communicate efficiently, but another to do so with character and flair. This isn't criticism but an observation of the trade-offs made for simplicity. Every language has its quirks, and understanding these nuances can make for a richer linguistic experience.

revid 3y ago
this was circulating on usenet in early 2000s for a while, id love to see it official: # Toki Pona: Snoufax II Advanced ## Basic Particles - *a* - particle - *e* - object marker - *en* - and - *la* - used for conditions and time - *li* - links subject and predicate - *o* - vocative particle - *pi* - of ## Tense and Aspect Modifiers - *sili* - Continuous or ongoing. "mi sili toki" – I am speaking. ## Moods and Modality - *kin* - Potentiality (can/might). "mi kin toki" – I might speak. ## Technical and Scientific Terms - *ilo sona* - Computer (knowledge tool). "mi kepeken ilo sona" – I use a computer. ## Abstract Concepts - *pona nasin* - Justice (right way/path). "pona nasin li tawa mi" – Justice is important to me. ## Idiomatic Expressions - *pakala luka* - Break a limb (good luck). "pakala luka tawa sina!" – Break a leg (Good luck)! ## Politeness Levels - *sewi* - To elevate the status of the person being spoken to. "sewi jan Lisa, mi toki tawa sina" – Honorable Lisa, I speak to you. ## Detailed Descriptors - *jelo pimeja* - Dark yellow (like mustard). "mi jo e tomo jelo pimeja" – I have a mustard-colored house. ## Complex Syntax - *seme* - Universally before a statement to make it interrogative. "seme sina toki?" – Are you speaking? ## Pronouns - *ono* - Neutral pronoun (they/them). "ono li toki tawa mi" – They are speaking to me. ## Numerical System - *ten* - Ten. "mi jo e ten tomo" – I have ten houses. ## Prefixes/Suffixes for Intensifiers - *suli-* - A prefix to mean "very/big". "suli-pona" – Very good. ## Passive Voice - *palisa* - Passive. "mi palisa toki" – I am spoken to. ## Directional Particles - *noka* - Toward. "mi tawa noka tomo" – I am going towards the house. - *monsi* - Away from. "mi tawa monsi tomo" – I am moving away from the house. ## Negation of Modality - *ala kin* - Cannot, impossible. "mi ala kin toki" – I can't speak. ## Temporal Phrases - *tenpo pini* - Previously, before. "tenpo pini la, mi toki" – I spoke before. - *tenpo kama* - Soon, later. "tenpo kama la, mi toki" – I will speak later. ## Comparison and Superlatives - *sama lili* - Less like, lesser. "mi sama lili jan Lisa" – I am less like Lisa. - *sama suli* - More like, greater. "mi sama suli jan Lisa" – I am more like Lisa. ## Conditional Statements - *sama... la* - If... then... "sama toki pona li pona tawa sina la, sina toki kepeken ona" – If you like Toki Pona, then you speak using it. ## Reflexive Actions - *sama mi* - Myself. "mi toki tawa sama mi" – I talk to myself. ## Possession - *pi mi* - Mine. "tomo ni li pi mi" – This house is mine. ## Emphasis Particle - *kin li* - Emphasizes the action or state. "mi kin li toki!" – I really am speaking! ## Uncertainty or Hesitation - *...anu...* - Either... or... "mi toki anu toki ala" – I either speak or don't. ## Verb Structures - *li... e* - Direct object indicator. "mi li toki e toki" – I speak the language. - *tan... tawa* - Cause and effect. "mi tan tomo tawa tomo sona" – I go from home to school. ## Adjectives and Adverbs - *sama sona* - Intelligently, knowledgeably. "ona li toki sama sona" – He speaks intelligently. - *pona mute* - Very well. "mi toki pona mute" – I speak very well.
- tbodt 3y ago
  As an experienced toki pona speaker, this list is amusing because most of this is either a pointless terrible idea or already valid and accepted - somehow with very little in between. I'll leave it to the next commenter to go point by point.
  - revid 3y ago
    That makes sense as to why it's from the 2000s prior to your modern tongue.
grey_earthling 3y ago
> Abstract concepts - The language seems to skate over complex philosophical or scientific ideas. You won't find an easy way to express ideas like "justice" or "quantum". It's a testament to its minimalist design, but it also means some concepts are lost in translation. Justice could be translated as “sama pona” (literally “good sameness”). Quantum could be translated as “wan” (literally “unit”); so a quantum leap in the sense of a non-gradual physical movement would be “tawa wan” (“single movement”), whereas a quantum leap in the sense of a large change would be “ante suli” (“large difference”). You're right that it is very easy to lose nuance in translation. I guess that's true of translating between any two languages that are quite different. > Specific flora/fauna - While you can use terms like "kili", "kala", or "soweli" to describe plants, fish, or mammals, respectively, don't expect to convey specific species such as "maple tree" or "cat". It's a broad brush approach that lacks granularity. The idea is that rather than naming things, you describe them. A maple tree could be “kasi suwi” (“sweet tree”) or “kasi pi ma Kanata” (“Canadian tree”), depending on context. A cat could be “soweli pona” (“friendly animal”) or “soweli utala” (“fighty animal”) or “soweli utala pi luka kiwen” (“hard-clawed fighty animal”) or “soweli kalama” (“noisy animal”) or “soweli pona utala kalama” (“noisy fighty friend animal”), depending on your relationship to the individual. Toki pona forces you to think about which aspects are relevant to your meaning, and state the context explicitly. This is one of the stated intentions of the language, and therefore a feature rather than a bug :) > Idiomatic phrases - A repertoire of idioms or set phrases for common topics would make conversations feel more culturally rich and engaging. There are some of these, for example “jan pona” (“good person”) very commonly means “friend”.
- JimDabell 3y ago
  > “jan pona” (“good person”) very commonly means “friend”. But “good person” and “friend” are two very different things. I might describe a well-known charitable figure as a good person, but that wouldn’t mean I would be calling them my friend. One is a value judgement and the other is a personal relationship.
  - Grimblewald 3y ago
    So call them "my good person" giving the implication of familiarity. Similarly my best person could be your best friend.
sowbug 3y ago
I've studied three foreign languages (four if you count a failed Toki Pona attempt a while ago), and I find it neat to discover a new grammatical concept, such as subjunctive in Spanish, which exists but only barely in English, or to realize that a language is missing an English construct, such as Mandarin, which doesn't have anywhere near as many gendered words as Germanic or Romance languages. As with computer languages, it's rarely the case that something is inexpressible, but it might have to be done differently compared to another language. I don't completely buy into the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, but I do believe that cultural differences are partly attributable to grammar and vocabulary.
- lproven 3y ago
  As I understand it, neither Mandarin nor Irish have words that directly mean "yes" and "no." Then again, half a millennium ago, English had 4 such words: 2 for yes, 2 for no. (Sir Thomas More tried to explain this circa 400 years ago, and even he got it wrong.) Norwegian and Czech, both of which I speak very badly, preserve two forms of "yes" and I cannot keep them straight.
  - sowbug 3y ago
    Learning Mandarin does make me yearn for the simplicity of English "yes" and "no." But I have to admit, each word in Mandarin works a lot harder than it does in English, so you can often say a heck of a lot in just one or two syllables.
TylerE 3y ago
There are well over a hundred species of maple. It’s an entire genus.
- dmoy 3y ago
  Relevantly, many of them have no single word name in English, or even any specific name in English at all.
  - jl6 3y ago
    Pragmatically, in English we deal with this by briefly dropping into Latin to talk about acer caesium, for example, and this is fine because we’re generally not aiming for any kind of linguistic purity - it’s not so easy if we try to use Toki Pona as a highly puristic, controlled vocabulary language.
marmakoide 3y ago
In Mandarin and Vietnamese, you can build new words by concatenation of words with broad meanings. Say, a plane is "flying machine", a mobile phone is a "hand machine", and a fridge is a "cold closet". In practice, it's very effective and it allows you to either guess the commonly used concatenations, or make up your own and you might be understood. I assume you can do that in Toki Pona too ?
- wongarsu 3y ago
  Even English kind of does this, just playing parcour through multiple languages, and with time and use shortening the compound words to shorter alternatives. A plane is an aeroplane, or aeróplanos, an air wanderer. A mobile phone is a mobile telefone, a movable far-voice.
- Sharlin 3y ago
  And of course in many languages more related to English as well, such as (a bit infamously) German. And obviously there are compound words in English as well, either concatenated ("snowman", "airport") or not ("cell phone", "compound word").
- jstarfish 3y ago
  My favorite is "electric brain," for "computer."
  - kwhitefoot 3y ago
    Well, the kind of computer you have in mind used to be electronic computer to distinguish it from a computer or calculator which described a human being who computed. See, for instance, Nevil Shute's biography Slide Rule in which he describes being in charge of a department of calculators when working on the R100. It's a fascinating read. You can get it from Anna's Archive.
- bonoboTP 3y ago
  Most languages are like this. That English words are so opaque is quite a historically contingent thing, not the baseline of how languages usually work. English retains a lot of Latin and Greek and French compounds, which are usually translated more literally in many other languages. In German, plane is Flugzeug (flight tool), fridge is Kühlschrank (cooling closet). In Hungarian, they are repülőgép (flying machine) and hűtőszekrény (cooling closet) as well, calqued from German. English speakers often perceive this as some kind of endearing primitive Tarzan-like communication without all those classy prestigious words, but English also has plenty examples. How about "washing machine" for example?
axus 3y ago
“Don't you see that the whole aim of Newspeak is to narrow the range of thought? In the end we shall make thoughtcrime literally impossible, because there will be no words in which to express it."
mistermann 3y ago
This is suggestive that ~Hard Whorfism may have some truth to it does it not? Expert consensus seems to be that it is a "fact" that Hard Whorfism is false, though I strongly disagree, wonder what your take is on it? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity

revid 3y ago

this was circulating on usenet in early 2000s for a while, id love to see it official: # Toki Pona: Snoufax II Advanced ## Basic Particles - *a* - particle - *e* - object marker - *en* - and - *la* - used for conditions and time - *li* - links subject and predicate - *o* - vocative particle - *pi* - of ## Tense and Aspect Modifiers - *sili* - Continuous or ongoing. "mi sili toki" – I am speaking. ## Moods and Modality - *kin* - Potentiality (can/might). "mi kin toki" – I might speak. ## Technical and Scientific Terms - *ilo sona* - Computer (knowledge tool). "mi kepeken ilo sona" – I use a computer. ## Abstract Concepts - *pona nasin* - Justice (right way/path). "pona nasin li tawa mi" – Justice is important to me. ## Idiomatic Expressions - *pakala luka* - Break a limb (good luck). "pakala luka tawa sina!" – Break a leg (Good luck)! ## Politeness Levels - *sewi* - To elevate the status of the person being spoken to. "sewi jan Lisa, mi toki tawa sina" – Honorable Lisa, I speak to you. ## Detailed Descriptors - *jelo pimeja* - Dark yellow (like mustard). "mi jo e tomo jelo pimeja" – I have a mustard-colored house. ## Complex Syntax - *seme* - Universally before a statement to make it interrogative. "seme sina toki?" – Are you speaking? ## Pronouns - *ono* - Neutral pronoun (they/them). "ono li toki tawa mi" – They are speaking to me. ## Numerical System - *ten* - Ten. "mi jo e ten tomo" – I have ten houses. ## Prefixes/Suffixes for Intensifiers - *suli-* - A prefix to mean "very/big". "suli-pona" – Very good. ## Passive Voice - *palisa* - Passive. "mi palisa toki" – I am spoken to. ## Directional Particles - *noka* - Toward. "mi tawa noka tomo" – I am going towards the house. - *monsi* - Away from. "mi tawa monsi tomo" – I am moving away from the house. ## Negation of Modality - *ala kin* - Cannot, impossible. "mi ala kin toki" – I can't speak. ## Temporal Phrases - *tenpo pini* - Previously, before. "tenpo pini la, mi toki" – I spoke before. - *tenpo kama* - Soon, later. "tenpo kama la, mi toki" – I will speak later. ## Comparison and Superlatives - *sama lili* - Less like, lesser. "mi sama lili jan Lisa" – I am less like Lisa. - *sama suli* - More like, greater. "mi sama suli jan Lisa" – I am more like Lisa. ## Conditional Statements - *sama... la* - If... then... "sama toki pona li pona tawa sina la, sina toki kepeken ona" – If you like Toki Pona, then you speak using it. ## Reflexive Actions - *sama mi* - Myself. "mi toki tawa sama mi" – I talk to myself. ## Possession - *pi mi* - Mine. "tomo ni li pi mi" – This house is mine. ## Emphasis Particle - *kin li* - Emphasizes the action or state. "mi kin li toki!" – I really am speaking! ## Uncertainty or Hesitation - *...anu...* - Either... or... "mi toki anu toki ala" – I either speak or don't. ## Verb Structures - *li... e* - Direct object indicator. "mi li toki e toki" – I speak the language. - *tan... tawa* - Cause and effect. "mi tan tomo tawa tomo sona" – I go from home to school. ## Adjectives and Adverbs - *sama sona* - Intelligently, knowledgeably. "ona li toki sama sona" – He speaks intelligently. - *pona mute* - Very well. "mi toki pona mute" – I speak very well.

tbodt 3y ago
As an experienced toki pona speaker, this list is amusing because most of this is either a pointless terrible idea or already valid and accepted - somehow with very little in between. I'll leave it to the next commenter to go point by point.
- revid 3y ago
  That makes sense as to why it's from the 2000s prior to your modern tongue.

grey_earthling 3y ago

> Abstract concepts - The language seems to skate over complex philosophical or scientific ideas. You won't find an easy way to express ideas like "justice" or "quantum". It's a testament to its minimalist design, but it also means some concepts are lost in translation. Justice could be translated as “sama pona” (literally “good sameness”). Quantum could be translated as “wan” (literally “unit”); so a quantum leap in the sense of a non-gradual physical movement would be “tawa wan” (“single movement”), whereas a quantum leap in the sense of a large change would be “ante suli” (“large difference”). You're right that it is very easy to lose nuance in translation. I guess that's true of translating between any two languages that are quite different. > Specific flora/fauna - While you can use terms like "kili", "kala", or "soweli" to describe plants, fish, or mammals, respectively, don't expect to convey specific species such as "maple tree" or "cat". It's a broad brush approach that lacks granularity. The idea is that rather than naming things, you describe them. A maple tree could be “kasi suwi” (“sweet tree”) or “kasi pi ma Kanata” (“Canadian tree”), depending on context. A cat could be “soweli pona” (“friendly animal”) or “soweli utala” (“fighty animal”) or “soweli utala pi luka kiwen” (“hard-clawed fighty animal”) or “soweli kalama” (“noisy animal”) or “soweli pona utala kalama” (“noisy fighty friend animal”), depending on your relationship to the individual. Toki pona forces you to think about which aspects are relevant to your meaning, and state the context explicitly. This is one of the stated intentions of the language, and therefore a feature rather than a bug :) > Idiomatic phrases - A repertoire of idioms or set phrases for common topics would make conversations feel more culturally rich and engaging. There are some of these, for example “jan pona” (“good person”) very commonly means “friend”.

JimDabell 3y ago
> “jan pona” (“good person”) very commonly means “friend”. But “good person” and “friend” are two very different things. I might describe a well-known charitable figure as a good person, but that wouldn’t mean I would be calling them my friend. One is a value judgement and the other is a personal relationship.
- Grimblewald 3y ago
  So call them "my good person" giving the implication of familiarity. Similarly my best person could be your best friend.

sowbug 3y ago

I've studied three foreign languages (four if you count a failed Toki Pona attempt a while ago), and I find it neat to discover a new grammatical concept, such as subjunctive in Spanish, which exists but only barely in English, or to realize that a language is missing an English construct, such as Mandarin, which doesn't have anywhere near as many gendered words as Germanic or Romance languages. As with computer languages, it's rarely the case that something is inexpressible, but it might have to be done differently compared to another language. I don't completely buy into the Sapir-Whorf hypothesis, but I do believe that cultural differences are partly attributable to grammar and vocabulary.

lproven 3y ago
As I understand it, neither Mandarin nor Irish have words that directly mean "yes" and "no." Then again, half a millennium ago, English had 4 such words: 2 for yes, 2 for no. (Sir Thomas More tried to explain this circa 400 years ago, and even he got it wrong.) Norwegian and Czech, both of which I speak very badly, preserve two forms of "yes" and I cannot keep them straight.
- sowbug 3y ago
  Learning Mandarin does make me yearn for the simplicity of English "yes" and "no." But I have to admit, each word in Mandarin works a lot harder than it does in English, so you can often say a heck of a lot in just one or two syllables.

TylerE 3y ago

There are well over a hundred species of maple. It’s an entire genus.

dmoy 3y ago
Relevantly, many of them have no single word name in English, or even any specific name in English at all.
- jl6 3y ago
  Pragmatically, in English we deal with this by briefly dropping into Latin to talk about acer caesium, for example, and this is fine because we’re generally not aiming for any kind of linguistic purity - it’s not so easy if we try to use Toki Pona as a highly puristic, controlled vocabulary language.

marmakoide 3y ago

In Mandarin and Vietnamese, you can build new words by concatenation of words with broad meanings. Say, a plane is "flying machine", a mobile phone is a "hand machine", and a fridge is a "cold closet". In practice, it's very effective and it allows you to either guess the commonly used concatenations, or make up your own and you might be understood. I assume you can do that in Toki Pona too ?

wongarsu 3y ago
Even English kind of does this, just playing parcour through multiple languages, and with time and use shortening the compound words to shorter alternatives. A plane is an aeroplane, or aeróplanos, an air wanderer. A mobile phone is a mobile telefone, a movable far-voice.
Sharlin 3y ago
And of course in many languages more related to English as well, such as (a bit infamously) German. And obviously there are compound words in English as well, either concatenated ("snowman", "airport") or not ("cell phone", "compound word").
jstarfish 3y ago
My favorite is "electric brain," for "computer."
- kwhitefoot 3y ago
  Well, the kind of computer you have in mind used to be electronic computer to distinguish it from a computer or calculator which described a human being who computed. See, for instance, Nevil Shute's biography Slide Rule in which he describes being in charge of a department of calculators when working on the R100. It's a fascinating read. You can get it from Anna's Archive.
bonoboTP 3y ago
Most languages are like this. That English words are so opaque is quite a historically contingent thing, not the baseline of how languages usually work. English retains a lot of Latin and Greek and French compounds, which are usually translated more literally in many other languages. In German, plane is Flugzeug (flight tool), fridge is Kühlschrank (cooling closet). In Hungarian, they are repülőgép (flying machine) and hűtőszekrény (cooling closet) as well, calqued from German. English speakers often perceive this as some kind of endearing primitive Tarzan-like communication without all those classy prestigious words, but English also has plenty examples. How about "washing machine" for example?

axus 3y ago

“Don't you see that the whole aim of Newspeak is to narrow the range of thought? In the end we shall make thoughtcrime literally impossible, because there will be no words in which to express it."

mistermann 3y ago

This is suggestive that ~Hard Whorfism may have some truth to it does it not? Expert consensus seems to be that it is a "fact" that Hard Whorfism is false, though I strongly disagree, wonder what your take is on it? https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_relativity