11 ms·

Isn't DEFCON like super full and nauseating now? It's just so big.

greggsy 3y ago
Yes, it was when I attended a couple of years ago. Can’t imagine it would ever get better.
zer8k 3y ago
It’s also painfully corporate. It used to be Defcon attendees would make fun of black hat attendees. Now they’re the same people. It’s no where near the same feeling it was years ago. Too expensive for the value you get out of it.
- upwardbound 3y ago
  Is there any smaller conference that's more focused on white-hat illegal hacking, like DEFCON used to be?
  - rychco 3y ago
    A former colleague of mine had a good impression of BSides in this regard, but I can’t remember which location/year it was (& there seems to be a lot)
  - j0hnyl 3y ago
    Regional conferences like bsides, but the punk/counterculture vibe of early defcon is lost to time and will never be back. Cybersecurity is a big industry now.
    - mmaunder 3y ago
      Sad but true. It’s as if the last ounce of hacker authenticity died with Kevin.
      - j0hnyl 3y ago
        I think hacker authenticity lives on, but not in the form of a massive con that has become a pop culture event.
      - milsorgen 3y ago
        We're living in a golden age of burgeoning counter cultures. It's just never easy to see in the moment.
        j0hnyl 3y ago
        It used to be, but maybe I'm old.
  - david_shaw 3y ago
    There are lots of regional conferences that are really great: NolaCon in New Orleans, THOTCON in Chicago, ShmooCon in D.C., just to name a few :) The hacker community is alive and well (even at DEF CON), but in my experience you have to look harder to find it.
  - albertzeyer 3y ago
    The events in Europe: All the Chaos Computer Club (CCC) events, or then also OHM/SHA/MCH (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_Contain_Hackers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_Contain_Hackers) etc.
  - zer8k 3y ago
    From what I've experienced BSides aims to be as close to Alexis Park DEFCON as possible. It does a good job.
    - igetspam 3y ago
      DC @ AP was probably peak 'con. You can't even reference pool numbers with kids these days... The AP _hated_ us but they had a multi-year contract.
      - throwaway892238 3y ago
        AP was the closest thing I can imagine to "what if the Hell's Angels were a bunch of nerds into computers?"
  - screwturner68 3y ago
    tHOTCON is pretty cool, I'm not sure if I'd consider it White hat as much as it is non-corporate.
- krisoft 3y ago
  > It’s also painfully corporate. It used to be Defcon attendees would make fun of black hat attendees. Now they’re the same people. I'm confused about this part of your comment.. To my understanding "black hat" means that you are not caring about laws and ethics. Yet it sounds like you are using the word to describe the corporate security types?
  - zer8k 3y ago
    "Black Hat" is the professional computer security conference that preceeds Defcon. Defcon was the grungy hobbiest doing crazy shit with computers. Black hat was corporate sponsored presentations, stuffy suits, and business cards. At Black Hat you had a real name. At Defcon you had a handle. Black Hat attendees were looked at as sellouts. Now Defcon is the same way. They even take pre-payment and I'm old enough to remember when DT would've NEVER even floated that idea. I went for 20 years. I quit going after 2018. IMO it died around 2010 but kept floating for a while before sinking.
    - tptacek 3y ago
      Black Hat was contrived as a device for getting corporate IT departments to pay for their staff (who were already going anyways) to attend Defcon. Since then, it's become one of the primary venues for non-academic offensive security research, so anybody dunking on it is telling on themselves a bit. There are higher-end vulnerability research conferences, but they're not less corporate. There are regional conferences that are much closer in spirit to the Defcon of the 1990s, but while some of that is due to not having a vendor expo (not my favorite Black Hat innovation either), some of it is also due to early Defcon being pretty superficial and non-rigorous. Better if you're looking for a particular kind of social scene, worse if you actually want to see interesting new research.
      - screwturner68 3y ago
        The difference of course is that Black Hat is really expensive and DEF CON used to be really cheap -you also couldn't pre-purchase a badge so it was more egalitarian. DEF CON used to have more of the punk/libertarian/anarchist vibe where Black Hat was a corporate event. --Just my opinion, you may disagree.
libraryatnight 3y ago
I'd be curious to know from those with a couple under their belts if it's still fun or just all trade show, now?
- j0hnyl 3y ago
  It's nice if your employer foots the bill, but not worth going on your own dime imo. People who have been going for a while keepn coming back to see friends they've made over the years.
- d1str0 3y ago
  Definitely still worth it if you’ve never been before. People who have gone 5+ years will bitch and whine and tell you how much it’s changed but also they’ve seen everything at the con before. Your 20th trip to Disneyland isn’t going to be as magical as the first.
  - ghostpepper 3y ago
    I went for the first time this year and I’m very happy I did. It’s an extremely unique experience. I have no doubt it was better when it was smaller and more underground but that doesn’t mean it’s bad or not enjoyable now.
    - libraryatnight 3y ago
      Cool, I think I'll try to go next time it comes round. Thanks for reporting in :)
- helpfulclippy 3y ago
  I found it pretty weak compared to prior years. It is too crowded, too full of itself, and has too many things that don’t work. I basically ignored the content after getting burned out on it Friday and just focused on networking. So, uh… yeah. Total trade show now.
nosmokewhereiam 3y ago
Derbycon, b-sides, and CCC
- mycall 3y ago
  Fosdem
  - teddyh 3y ago
    FOSDEM is more about building stuff than breaking stuff.
    - mycall 3y ago
      To know where to break stuff, you have to know how to build it too, especially for 0-day.
mmaunder 3y ago
Yep. We too our whole team to DEF CON every year since 2015. (We’re an infosec team of around 40). After last year I made the call to ditch it and we took them to Banff this year and did fun outdoor stuff, spouses and partners included. Not a single person missed it. And suddenly spouses wanted to come too. DEF CON has become super lame. Basically a giant corporate event center with long lines and uninspiring talks and booths. And Vegas is filled with people at their worst being exploited. Not sure I’ll ever go back.
PedroBatista 3y ago
It's full corporate, no real hackers anymore. Just "security researchers", the usual government drones and posers. It has been this way for quite some time.
asynchronous 3y ago
Can say it was completely overpacked this year, totally overgrown. Linecon for literally everything, couldn’t talk to anyone in the main forum due to sound. Turning people away from the major talks because of fire capacity.
rdl 3y ago
Yeah, I went this year and regret it; it's been getting worse but Covid really killed everything good about it.

Yes, it was when I attended a couple of years ago. Can’t imagine it would ever get better.

It’s also painfully corporate. It used to be Defcon attendees would make fun of black hat attendees. Now they’re the same people. It’s no where near the same feeling it was years ago. Too expensive for the value you get out of it.

upwardbound 3y ago
Is there any smaller conference that's more focused on white-hat illegal hacking, like DEFCON used to be?
- rychco 3y ago
  A former colleague of mine had a good impression of BSides in this regard, but I can’t remember which location/year it was (& there seems to be a lot)
- j0hnyl 3y ago
  Regional conferences like bsides, but the punk/counterculture vibe of early defcon is lost to time and will never be back. Cybersecurity is a big industry now.
  - mmaunder 3y ago
    Sad but true. It’s as if the last ounce of hacker authenticity died with Kevin.
    - j0hnyl 3y ago
      I think hacker authenticity lives on, but not in the form of a massive con that has become a pop culture event.
    - milsorgen 3y ago
      We're living in a golden age of burgeoning counter cultures. It's just never easy to see in the moment.
      - j0hnyl 3y ago
        It used to be, but maybe I'm old.
- david_shaw 3y ago
  There are lots of regional conferences that are really great: NolaCon in New Orleans, THOTCON in Chicago, ShmooCon in D.C., just to name a few :) The hacker community is alive and well (even at DEF CON), but in my experience you have to look harder to find it.
- albertzeyer 3y ago
  The events in Europe: All the Chaos Computer Club (CCC) events, or then also OHM/SHA/MCH (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_Contain_Hackers https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/May_Contain_Hackers) etc.
- zer8k 3y ago
  From what I've experienced BSides aims to be as close to Alexis Park DEFCON as possible. It does a good job.
  - igetspam 3y ago
    DC @ AP was probably peak 'con. You can't even reference pool numbers with kids these days... The AP _hated_ us but they had a multi-year contract.
    - throwaway892238 3y ago
      AP was the closest thing I can imagine to "what if the Hell's Angels were a bunch of nerds into computers?"
- screwturner68 3y ago
  tHOTCON is pretty cool, I'm not sure if I'd consider it White hat as much as it is non-corporate.
krisoft 3y ago
> It’s also painfully corporate. It used to be Defcon attendees would make fun of black hat attendees. Now they’re the same people. I'm confused about this part of your comment.. To my understanding "black hat" means that you are not caring about laws and ethics. Yet it sounds like you are using the word to describe the corporate security types?
- zer8k 3y ago
  "Black Hat" is the professional computer security conference that preceeds Defcon. Defcon was the grungy hobbiest doing crazy shit with computers. Black hat was corporate sponsored presentations, stuffy suits, and business cards. At Black Hat you had a real name. At Defcon you had a handle. Black Hat attendees were looked at as sellouts. Now Defcon is the same way. They even take pre-payment and I'm old enough to remember when DT would've NEVER even floated that idea. I went for 20 years. I quit going after 2018. IMO it died around 2010 but kept floating for a while before sinking.
  - tptacek 3y ago
    Black Hat was contrived as a device for getting corporate IT departments to pay for their staff (who were already going anyways) to attend Defcon. Since then, it's become one of the primary venues for non-academic offensive security research, so anybody dunking on it is telling on themselves a bit. There are higher-end vulnerability research conferences, but they're not less corporate. There are regional conferences that are much closer in spirit to the Defcon of the 1990s, but while some of that is due to not having a vendor expo (not my favorite Black Hat innovation either), some of it is also due to early Defcon being pretty superficial and non-rigorous. Better if you're looking for a particular kind of social scene, worse if you actually want to see interesting new research.
    - screwturner68 3y ago
      The difference of course is that Black Hat is really expensive and DEF CON used to be really cheap -you also couldn't pre-purchase a badge so it was more egalitarian. DEF CON used to have more of the punk/libertarian/anarchist vibe where Black Hat was a corporate event. --Just my opinion, you may disagree.

libraryatnight 3y ago

I'd be curious to know from those with a couple under their belts if it's still fun or just all trade show, now?

j0hnyl 3y ago
It's nice if your employer foots the bill, but not worth going on your own dime imo. People who have been going for a while keepn coming back to see friends they've made over the years.
d1str0 3y ago
Definitely still worth it if you’ve never been before. People who have gone 5+ years will bitch and whine and tell you how much it’s changed but also they’ve seen everything at the con before. Your 20th trip to Disneyland isn’t going to be as magical as the first.
- ghostpepper 3y ago
  I went for the first time this year and I’m very happy I did. It’s an extremely unique experience. I have no doubt it was better when it was smaller and more underground but that doesn’t mean it’s bad or not enjoyable now.
  - libraryatnight 3y ago
    Cool, I think I'll try to go next time it comes round. Thanks for reporting in :)
helpfulclippy 3y ago
I found it pretty weak compared to prior years. It is too crowded, too full of itself, and has too many things that don’t work. I basically ignored the content after getting burned out on it Friday and just focused on networking. So, uh… yeah. Total trade show now.

nosmokewhereiam 3y ago

Derbycon, b-sides, and CCC

mycall 3y ago
Fosdem
- teddyh 3y ago
  FOSDEM is more about building stuff than breaking stuff.
  - mycall 3y ago
    To know where to break stuff, you have to know how to build it too, especially for 0-day.

mmaunder 3y ago

Yep. We too our whole team to DEF CON every year since 2015. (We’re an infosec team of around 40). After last year I made the call to ditch it and we took them to Banff this year and did fun outdoor stuff, spouses and partners included. Not a single person missed it. And suddenly spouses wanted to come too. DEF CON has become super lame. Basically a giant corporate event center with long lines and uninspiring talks and booths. And Vegas is filled with people at their worst being exploited. Not sure I’ll ever go back.

PedroBatista 3y ago

It's full corporate, no real hackers anymore. Just "security researchers", the usual government drones and posers. It has been this way for quite some time.

asynchronous 3y ago

Can say it was completely overpacked this year, totally overgrown. Linecon for literally everything, couldn’t talk to anyone in the main forum due to sound. Turning people away from the major talks because of fire capacity.

rdl 3y ago

Yeah, I went this year and regret it; it's been getting worse but Covid really killed everything good about it.