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Firstly I'm sorry to hear about your family's situation. I certainly dont mean to imply everything was rosy. I will compare very roughly and anecdotally across

Firstly I'm sorry to hear about your family's situation. I certainly dont mean to imply everything was rosy. I will compare very roughly and anecdotally across generations. I'm an Engineer (CS). So was my father, though he ended up doing accounting. So was my grandfather (civil.) My grandfather owned a home by 23 on his engineering salary. My father owned a comfortable home by 35 on his salary. The salary:homeprice ratio was almost 1.5:1 My salary:homeprice ratio for the same exact house as my father is 4:1. Arguably, i'm better educated than my father and grandfather, and have much better credentials. Im not trying to be ungrateful for what has been given to me, but the ratios seem completely off.

rayiner 3y ago
You’re talking about perceived downward mobility within a relatively elite segment of society. I recognize your original comment was about your grandparents, but it’s important to recognize that on average our generation is far better off than our grandparents. Two generations ago, the disparity between the north and south was comparable to the disparity that currently exists between the US and Panama.
sarchertech 3y ago
What was the size of your grandfather's home? If you built a comparable home today , the same distance from the center of a city of comparable size to the nearest city center when he bought the home, and you were allowed using comparable building codes, how much would that house cost? It's nearly impossible to actually compare these things. Comfort, and safety, are inherently difficult to value. Things like energy efficiency are difficult to price because of externalities. Externalities along make these kinds of things impossible to compare. For example, one of the reasons building was much cheaper 80 years ago was because there was very little environmental regulation.
- TuringNYC 3y ago
  It is hard to make a comparison for my grandfather, but my father's home is right in my hometown and still exists. You raise all great points. My father's home was in Brighton Beach in Brooklyn NYC. It cost under $50,000 in 1980. The same house has a Zestimate today for $1,049,800. I wish we still owned it. For comparison sake, yes, there are 4 decades of upgrades and also 4 decades of deprecation, floods, hurricane sandy, etc. In 1980, my mother didnt work, nor did most moms in the neighborhood. Today, many moms in the neighborhood work to make ends meet. Interest rates were very high then, 10% compared to 6% now, though my did did re-fi when they dropped, so it wasnt a life-long issue. It is hard to compare electric/gas/water/proptaxes because I was too young to remember that. However, at the highest level, you just need to look at: RATIO of prevailing engineer wages in 1980 : $50,000 RATIO of prevailing engineer wages in 2023 : $1,049,800 That alone tells you there is a huge problem. I'll admit: - Food options today are way better - Cars today are way more comfortable and way safer - Entertainment in 2023 is way better (music, streaming tv, books) - Healthcare is better for extreme cases (cancer) though arguable for the average case? BUT - College was almost free after grants. Student debt was tiny
  - lotsofpulp 3y ago
    > - Healthcare is better for extreme cases (cancer) though arguable for the average case? Not arguable at all. The population, by and large, is receiving healthcare worth far more than whatever was available decades ago.
  - sarchertech 3y ago
    > $50k -> $1,049,800 You can't look at the price increase for the same house without accounting for the changes in the neighborhood and surrounding areas. A neighborhood increases in desirability, it now costs more to live in that nicer neighborhood. The population of a city increases, such that you now have to live farther away from the city to find comparably priced real estate etc... That's why I said if you want to compare, you'd need to find out how much it would cost to build a comparable house in a neighborhood that is comparable to the neighborhood as it was 40 years ago.
    - TuringNYC 3y ago
      I agree with you about trying to control for neighborhood changes, I dont think that is done here. There is gentrification and that admittedly makes the numbers harder to compare. That said, I would totally disagree that the real apples-to-apples comparison would be to find an equivalent home further away. That literally proves my original argument -- that the current generation has to work the same for less. That our parents could live in the city while we commute from the exurbs.
      - sarchertech 3y ago
        You have to control for the city changing is well because that directly impacts the desirability of the neighborhood. In the extreme case, if a city has increased population, such that what used to be considered a suburb is now as dense and desirable as what used to be the city center, while you may be moving farther from the city center, you might not be farther from an area equivalent to the city center from decades ago. In the case of New York, desirability of the city (not just the specific suburb you're comparing) has increased massively. The only way to find a comparable neighborhood, that is a comparable distance to a city center that is as desirable as Manhattan or Brooklyn was in the 1980, is to either look farther out or look at an area near a different city.

rayiner 3y ago

You’re talking about perceived downward mobility within a relatively elite segment of society. I recognize your original comment was about your grandparents, but it’s important to recognize that on average our generation is far better off than our grandparents. Two generations ago, the disparity between the north and south was comparable to the disparity that currently exists between the US and Panama.

sarchertech 3y ago

What was the size of your grandfather's home? If you built a comparable home today , the same distance from the center of a city of comparable size to the nearest city center when he bought the home, and you were allowed using comparable building codes, how much would that house cost? It's nearly impossible to actually compare these things. Comfort, and safety, are inherently difficult to value. Things like energy efficiency are difficult to price because of externalities. Externalities along make these kinds of things impossible to compare. For example, one of the reasons building was much cheaper 80 years ago was because there was very little environmental regulation.

TuringNYC 3y ago
It is hard to make a comparison for my grandfather, but my father's home is right in my hometown and still exists. You raise all great points. My father's home was in Brighton Beach in Brooklyn NYC. It cost under $50,000 in 1980. The same house has a Zestimate today for $1,049,800. I wish we still owned it. For comparison sake, yes, there are 4 decades of upgrades and also 4 decades of deprecation, floods, hurricane sandy, etc. In 1980, my mother didnt work, nor did most moms in the neighborhood. Today, many moms in the neighborhood work to make ends meet. Interest rates were very high then, 10% compared to 6% now, though my did did re-fi when they dropped, so it wasnt a life-long issue. It is hard to compare electric/gas/water/proptaxes because I was too young to remember that. However, at the highest level, you just need to look at: RATIO of prevailing engineer wages in 1980 : $50,000 RATIO of prevailing engineer wages in 2023 : $1,049,800 That alone tells you there is a huge problem. I'll admit: - Food options today are way better - Cars today are way more comfortable and way safer - Entertainment in 2023 is way better (music, streaming tv, books) - Healthcare is better for extreme cases (cancer) though arguable for the average case? BUT - College was almost free after grants. Student debt was tiny
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  > - Healthcare is better for extreme cases (cancer) though arguable for the average case? Not arguable at all. The population, by and large, is receiving healthcare worth far more than whatever was available decades ago.
- sarchertech 3y ago
  > $50k -> $1,049,800 You can't look at the price increase for the same house without accounting for the changes in the neighborhood and surrounding areas. A neighborhood increases in desirability, it now costs more to live in that nicer neighborhood. The population of a city increases, such that you now have to live farther away from the city to find comparably priced real estate etc... That's why I said if you want to compare, you'd need to find out how much it would cost to build a comparable house in a neighborhood that is comparable to the neighborhood as it was 40 years ago.
  - TuringNYC 3y ago
    I agree with you about trying to control for neighborhood changes, I dont think that is done here. There is gentrification and that admittedly makes the numbers harder to compare. That said, I would totally disagree that the real apples-to-apples comparison would be to find an equivalent home further away. That literally proves my original argument -- that the current generation has to work the same for less. That our parents could live in the city while we commute from the exurbs.
    - sarchertech 3y ago
      You have to control for the city changing is well because that directly impacts the desirability of the neighborhood. In the extreme case, if a city has increased population, such that what used to be considered a suburb is now as dense and desirable as what used to be the city center, while you may be moving farther from the city center, you might not be farther from an area equivalent to the city center from decades ago. In the case of New York, desirability of the city (not just the specific suburb you're comparing) has increased massively. The only way to find a comparable neighborhood, that is a comparable distance to a city center that is as desirable as Manhattan or Brooklyn was in the 1980, is to either look farther out or look at an area near a different city.