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I feel blessed to work in Tech, where -- however bad the economy is -- most of us dont face absolute deprivation as those in some other industries. That said,

I feel blessed to work in Tech, where -- however bad the economy is -- most of us dont face absolute deprivation as those in some other industries. That said, basic expectations of things growing up are just unreachable for many. My parents lived much more comfortable lives than I do. My grandparents even more so. Recall how food inflation was a major suspected cause of the Arab Spring (https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/world-july-dec11-food_09-07 https://www.pbs.org/newshour/world/world-july-dec11-food_09-...). US leaders should be careful. People get upset when they have nothing to feed their children. I hope we solve these problems with sensible fiscal and monetary policy.

rayiner 3y ago
> That said, basic expectations of things growing up are just unreachable for many. My parents lived much more comfortable lives than I do. My grandparents even more so. My wife’s grandma got married as a teenager to a trucker passing by because her family couldn’t support all their kids. This was not unusual in that generation.
- TuringNYC 3y ago
  Firstly I'm sorry to hear about your family's situation. I certainly dont mean to imply everything was rosy. I will compare very roughly and anecdotally across generations. I'm an Engineer (CS). So was my father, though he ended up doing accounting. So was my grandfather (civil.) My grandfather owned a home by 23 on his engineering salary. My father owned a comfortable home by 35 on his salary. The salary:homeprice ratio was almost 1.5:1 My salary:homeprice ratio for the same exact house as my father is 4:1. Arguably, i'm better educated than my father and grandfather, and have much better credentials. Im not trying to be ungrateful for what has been given to me, but the ratios seem completely off.
  - rayiner 3y ago
    You’re talking about perceived downward mobility within a relatively elite segment of society. I recognize your original comment was about your grandparents, but it’s important to recognize that on average our generation is far better off than our grandparents. Two generations ago, the disparity between the north and south was comparable to the disparity that currently exists between the US and Panama.
  - sarchertech 3y ago
    What was the size of your grandfather's home? If you built a comparable home today , the same distance from the center of a city of comparable size to the nearest city center when he bought the home, and you were allowed using comparable building codes, how much would that house cost? It's nearly impossible to actually compare these things. Comfort, and safety, are inherently difficult to value. Things like energy efficiency are difficult to price because of externalities. Externalities along make these kinds of things impossible to compare. For example, one of the reasons building was much cheaper 80 years ago was because there was very little environmental regulation.
    - TuringNYC 3y ago
      It is hard to make a comparison for my grandfather, but my father's home is right in my hometown and still exists. You raise all great points. My father's home was in Brighton Beach in Brooklyn NYC. It cost under $50,000 in 1980. The same house has a Zestimate today for $1,049,800. I wish we still owned it. For comparison sake, yes, there are 4 decades of upgrades and also 4 decades of deprecation, floods, hurricane sandy, etc. In 1980, my mother didnt work, nor did most moms in the neighborhood. Today, many moms in the neighborhood work to make ends meet. Interest rates were very high then, 10% compared to 6% now, though my did did re-fi when they dropped, so it wasnt a life-long issue. It is hard to compare electric/gas/water/proptaxes because I was too young to remember that. However, at the highest level, you just need to look at: RATIO of prevailing engineer wages in 1980 : $50,000 RATIO of prevailing engineer wages in 2023 : $1,049,800 That alone tells you there is a huge problem. I'll admit: - Food options today are way better - Cars today are way more comfortable and way safer - Entertainment in 2023 is way better (music, streaming tv, books) - Healthcare is better for extreme cases (cancer) though arguable for the average case? BUT - College was almost free after grants. Student debt was tiny
      - lotsofpulp 3y ago
        > - Healthcare is better for extreme cases (cancer) though arguable for the average case? Not arguable at all. The population, by and large, is receiving healthcare worth far more than whatever was available decades ago.
tiffanyg 3y ago
My parents lived much more comfortable lives... grandparents even more so... Interesting how you stopped at "grandparents". To be clear, absolutely not intended as any kind of attack on you or what you've written - just some thoughts passed on to me that made it easier to be grateful for that which is in my life, period: Consider past generations - we're in "the 1%" by that metric alone. No / hardly (any "real") medicine, completely unstable food supplies, other tribes coming over the hills and killing everyone ... and, that's describing more of the "history" part of human existence, to date.* Further, a core bias of psychology is "the golden age bias".** Including feelings as simple as: when events are in the past, things can seem so "neat", "orderly", and ... "simple". Oh for one income to feed a family of four, right? But, how many had that experience - what proportion? And, that ties in with "survivor bias" etc. Don't get me wrong, instability is a PITA. I get where you're coming from. It's not as though I don't have such thoughts. But, I can always come back to various bits of wisdom I've picked up from a myriad of sources, including a phrasing I've always liked that AFAIK is from Bill Maher: If you think you have it tough, read history books. That always helps me to remember that I didn't just watch my village burn to the ground due to the Mongol or European or etc. raiders, my relatives get raped and murdered, my child die of ... well, just about anything ... ... maybe some in this thread will find these ideas useful as well. * Zooming out a bit more ... I always find it amusing walking in a park, especially - hearing the birds chirping, seeing the squirrels "frolicking" ... what passes for a pleasant "pastoral" experience for us, is filled with advertisements for sex / nasty "neighbor property line disputes" (birds chirping), animals desperately trying to find the next meal or water, etc. ** https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Good_old_days https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Good_old_days
- TuringNYC 3y ago
  1000% agree with you that things were much worse once we go beyond grandparents. Just antibiotics and democracy alone have improved every person's life. >> AFAIK is from Bill Maher: If you think you have it tough, read history books. Be careful when Conservatives tell you to be complacent or grateful. There is a typical line "you are worrying about your $15hr minimum wage when kids half your age work in coal mines". You can use such arguments for all sorts of nefarious purposes "you think your public school is overcrowded? go to Africa" "you think healthcare in the US is bad? go to rural Nepal" "you think crime is high in SF? go to 1800s NYC" But why should we aspire to that? Why not aspire to more?

rayiner 3y ago

> That said, basic expectations of things growing up are just unreachable for many. My parents lived much more comfortable lives than I do. My grandparents even more so. My wife’s grandma got married as a teenager to a trucker passing by because her family couldn’t support all their kids. This was not unusual in that generation.

TuringNYC 3y ago
Firstly I'm sorry to hear about your family's situation. I certainly dont mean to imply everything was rosy. I will compare very roughly and anecdotally across generations. I'm an Engineer (CS). So was my father, though he ended up doing accounting. So was my grandfather (civil.) My grandfather owned a home by 23 on his engineering salary. My father owned a comfortable home by 35 on his salary. The salary:homeprice ratio was almost 1.5:1 My salary:homeprice ratio for the same exact house as my father is 4:1. Arguably, i'm better educated than my father and grandfather, and have much better credentials. Im not trying to be ungrateful for what has been given to me, but the ratios seem completely off.
- rayiner 3y ago
  You’re talking about perceived downward mobility within a relatively elite segment of society. I recognize your original comment was about your grandparents, but it’s important to recognize that on average our generation is far better off than our grandparents. Two generations ago, the disparity between the north and south was comparable to the disparity that currently exists between the US and Panama.
- sarchertech 3y ago
  What was the size of your grandfather's home? If you built a comparable home today , the same distance from the center of a city of comparable size to the nearest city center when he bought the home, and you were allowed using comparable building codes, how much would that house cost? It's nearly impossible to actually compare these things. Comfort, and safety, are inherently difficult to value. Things like energy efficiency are difficult to price because of externalities. Externalities along make these kinds of things impossible to compare. For example, one of the reasons building was much cheaper 80 years ago was because there was very little environmental regulation.
  - TuringNYC 3y ago
    It is hard to make a comparison for my grandfather, but my father's home is right in my hometown and still exists. You raise all great points. My father's home was in Brighton Beach in Brooklyn NYC. It cost under $50,000 in 1980. The same house has a Zestimate today for $1,049,800. I wish we still owned it. For comparison sake, yes, there are 4 decades of upgrades and also 4 decades of deprecation, floods, hurricane sandy, etc. In 1980, my mother didnt work, nor did most moms in the neighborhood. Today, many moms in the neighborhood work to make ends meet. Interest rates were very high then, 10% compared to 6% now, though my did did re-fi when they dropped, so it wasnt a life-long issue. It is hard to compare electric/gas/water/proptaxes because I was too young to remember that. However, at the highest level, you just need to look at: RATIO of prevailing engineer wages in 1980 : $50,000 RATIO of prevailing engineer wages in 2023 : $1,049,800 That alone tells you there is a huge problem. I'll admit: - Food options today are way better - Cars today are way more comfortable and way safer - Entertainment in 2023 is way better (music, streaming tv, books) - Healthcare is better for extreme cases (cancer) though arguable for the average case? BUT - College was almost free after grants. Student debt was tiny
    - lotsofpulp 3y ago
      > - Healthcare is better for extreme cases (cancer) though arguable for the average case? Not arguable at all. The population, by and large, is receiving healthcare worth far more than whatever was available decades ago.

tiffanyg 3y ago

My parents lived much more comfortable lives... grandparents even more so... Interesting how you stopped at "grandparents". To be clear, absolutely not intended as any kind of attack on you or what you've written - just some thoughts passed on to me that made it easier to be grateful for that which is in my life, period: Consider past generations - we're in "the 1%" by that metric alone. No / hardly (any "real") medicine, completely unstable food supplies, other tribes coming over the hills and killing everyone ... and, that's describing more of the "history" part of human existence, to date.* Further, a core bias of psychology is "the golden age bias".** Including feelings as simple as: when events are in the past, things can seem so "neat", "orderly", and ... "simple". Oh for one income to feed a family of four, right? But, how many had that experience - what proportion? And, that ties in with "survivor bias" etc. Don't get me wrong, instability is a PITA. I get where you're coming from. It's not as though I don't have such thoughts. But, I can always come back to various bits of wisdom I've picked up from a myriad of sources, including a phrasing I've always liked that AFAIK is from Bill Maher: If you think you have it tough, read history books. That always helps me to remember that I didn't just watch my village burn to the ground due to the Mongol or European or etc. raiders, my relatives get raped and murdered, my child die of ... well, just about anything ... ... maybe some in this thread will find these ideas useful as well. * Zooming out a bit more ... I always find it amusing walking in a park, especially - hearing the birds chirping, seeing the squirrels "frolicking" ... what passes for a pleasant "pastoral" experience for us, is filled with advertisements for sex / nasty "neighbor property line disputes" (birds chirping), animals desperately trying to find the next meal or water, etc. ** https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Good_old_days https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Good_old_days

TuringNYC 3y ago
1000% agree with you that things were much worse once we go beyond grandparents. Just antibiotics and democracy alone have improved every person's life. >> AFAIK is from Bill Maher: If you think you have it tough, read history books. Be careful when Conservatives tell you to be complacent or grateful. There is a typical line "you are worrying about your $15hr minimum wage when kids half your age work in coal mines". You can use such arguments for all sorts of nefarious purposes "you think your public school is overcrowded? go to Africa" "you think healthcare in the US is bad? go to rural Nepal" "you think crime is high in SF? go to 1800s NYC" But why should we aspire to that? Why not aspire to more?