3 ms·

Unconditional love is a trope I want to die so badly. It's so.... Selfish? I read it as "You don't matter at all. I'm so big hearted and perfect; isn't it glori

Unconditional love is a trope I want to die so badly. It's so.... Selfish? I read it as "You don't matter at all. I'm so big hearted and perfect; isn't it glorious?" I love my kid and wife because of who they are and specific things they do. And I tell them that. And I also tell them they can always change and my love for them will continue and change with them

smeej 3y ago
If you think it's possible both to love someone and not think they matter at all, I think you're doing love wrong.
- Misdicorl 3y ago
  But isn't that what "unconditional" demands of you?
  - layer8 3y ago
    I guess the one condition is that they ate the individual that they are, and not some other individual. So it matters that they are that specific individual (e.g. your child). I find the concept problematic as well. In practice there can certainly be limits.
  - jader201 3y ago
    I don’t think you can both love someone while also thinking they “don’t matter at all”. But maybe your definition of love is different. A parent simply telling their child, unconditionally, that they love them isn’t enough. You have to believe they do matter and are worth something. If you can say that about your child despite their many flaws, and potentially how they might hurt you [1], to me is what unconditional love is more about. [1] That is, humans aren’t perfect, and will on occasion hurt other humans, to some extent — especially children that are still developing and trying to figure out what is and isn’t appropriate.
    - Misdicorl 3y ago
      I don't think you're reading me properly. I think the statement is bs, not the feeling. Of course the individual matters! That's my entire point about the statement being bs. And to the other half, of course the conditions are incredibly nuanced and context dependent and probably unknowable to boot. It's not some sort of "three strikes and you're out" situation.
  - lelanthran 3y ago
    > But isn't that what "unconditional" demands of you? I think we're stuck on this word. Unconditional means, to many, "without any conditions attached" i.e. I will love you even if you don't love me back. I will love you regardless of the amount of money, status, good looks, $FOO, $BAR or $BAZ you have. I will love you, no matter the consequences, or the pain I will feel for doing so. IOW, it is love you feel without control; if you have control over it, it is conditional. I have not, until now, come across a definition of unconditional love to mean "I'm such a great person, I will love you even though you are not", or similar.
    - Misdicorl 3y ago
      I agree the word is the sticking point. Unconditional to me means there is literally nothing that can change it. No conditions. If you found out the relationship was a giant ruse created by a bored billionaire and the person began behaving completely differently because the contract ended: doesnt matter. All sorts of wacky scenarios you can dream up. I can't help but feel like saying unconditional love is a giant cop out. I love people for reasons. Important reasons. Some of those reasons can't change (e.g. you are my mom/dad/kid) but those aren't the only reasons. And it's important to me to communicate those attributes of people I love. And obviously the whole is bigger than the parts in some ineffable way. And I (try to) communicate that too. But the whole concept of unconditional love says nothing. It is a cop out. And ultimately, a lie
      - smeej 3y ago
        Love is a choice, not a circumstance, and unconditional love is the strongest form of it. I choose to love you even if you stop having characteristics I like. I choose to love you regardless of any good or bad qualities you have. I love you because you are, but I'll even love you after you stop being (what else is grief?). I don't know if you can understand it until you've received it. Until two years ago, I thought "love" itself was a lie we tell children to manipulate them into doing what we want, like Santa Claus. But then somebody loved me. Somebody saw me, heard me, knew me, understood me. He found joy in my existence, often because of his own determination to do so, not because I was making it apparent. He just loves me because I'm me and not him. If only one of us matters in this situation, from his perspective, it's me, not him. He wills my good for my sake, not his own, and even at his own expense. You seem to be using "love" to mean something like "like a whole lot," and maybe that's why unconditionality doesn't make sense. Love is an act of the will, not a response to a circumstance.
jxf 3y ago
I don't think that's what "unconditional love" means or should be taken to mean. It usually means that your ability to love someone is not contingent on an expectation of reciprocity. For example, an infant can't really verbalize affection, but you can nevertheless love them. Unconditional love also doesn't mean "no boundaries". You can love someone while insisting, for example, that they respect your autonomy or decisions.
- Misdicorl 3y ago
  Perhaps that's the intent, but I don't think so. It's root is in Christianity (I think?). God loves you no matter what and all that. I think you want a different term: though I'm struggling to come up with what it might be at the moment
  - sacrosancty 3y ago
    [dead]
  - lazyasciiart 3y ago
    If you love your child for who they are, then presumably you can describe what difference would make you not love them.
    - Misdicorl 3y ago
      Its hard to imagine, and would probably break me. Something like admitted, intentional, malicious, torture of our entire family for no benefit whatsoever might do it.
waithuh 3y ago
Well, unconditional love does originate from the favorable treats you mentioned, but its also the stories you had with them, your experiences, your ups and downs. Everything that made your life a little more worthwhile by simply standing by your side. Past a point, i believe it is impossible to end that relationship voluntarily, for both sides. If it was only because for who they are, I dont think your love for them would continue nor evolve, it would be a simple materialistic jealousy, never making it past conditions (hence, unconditional love).
bombcar 3y ago
You just defined unconditional love. If what they are and do is required - then if they stop doing you’d stop loving.

smeej 3y ago

If you think it's possible both to love someone and not think they matter at all, I think you're doing love wrong.

Misdicorl 3y ago
But isn't that what "unconditional" demands of you?
- layer8 3y ago
  I guess the one condition is that they ate the individual that they are, and not some other individual. So it matters that they are that specific individual (e.g. your child). I find the concept problematic as well. In practice there can certainly be limits.
- jader201 3y ago
  I don’t think you can both love someone while also thinking they “don’t matter at all”. But maybe your definition of love is different. A parent simply telling their child, unconditionally, that they love them isn’t enough. You have to believe they do matter and are worth something. If you can say that about your child despite their many flaws, and potentially how they might hurt you [1], to me is what unconditional love is more about. [1] That is, humans aren’t perfect, and will on occasion hurt other humans, to some extent — especially children that are still developing and trying to figure out what is and isn’t appropriate.
  - Misdicorl 3y ago
    I don't think you're reading me properly. I think the statement is bs, not the feeling. Of course the individual matters! That's my entire point about the statement being bs. And to the other half, of course the conditions are incredibly nuanced and context dependent and probably unknowable to boot. It's not some sort of "three strikes and you're out" situation.
- lelanthran 3y ago
  > But isn't that what "unconditional" demands of you? I think we're stuck on this word. Unconditional means, to many, "without any conditions attached" i.e. I will love you even if you don't love me back. I will love you regardless of the amount of money, status, good looks, $FOO, $BAR or $BAZ you have. I will love you, no matter the consequences, or the pain I will feel for doing so. IOW, it is love you feel without control; if you have control over it, it is conditional. I have not, until now, come across a definition of unconditional love to mean "I'm such a great person, I will love you even though you are not", or similar.
  - Misdicorl 3y ago
    I agree the word is the sticking point. Unconditional to me means there is literally nothing that can change it. No conditions. If you found out the relationship was a giant ruse created by a bored billionaire and the person began behaving completely differently because the contract ended: doesnt matter. All sorts of wacky scenarios you can dream up. I can't help but feel like saying unconditional love is a giant cop out. I love people for reasons. Important reasons. Some of those reasons can't change (e.g. you are my mom/dad/kid) but those aren't the only reasons. And it's important to me to communicate those attributes of people I love. And obviously the whole is bigger than the parts in some ineffable way. And I (try to) communicate that too. But the whole concept of unconditional love says nothing. It is a cop out. And ultimately, a lie
    - smeej 3y ago
      Love is a choice, not a circumstance, and unconditional love is the strongest form of it. I choose to love you even if you stop having characteristics I like. I choose to love you regardless of any good or bad qualities you have. I love you because you are, but I'll even love you after you stop being (what else is grief?). I don't know if you can understand it until you've received it. Until two years ago, I thought "love" itself was a lie we tell children to manipulate them into doing what we want, like Santa Claus. But then somebody loved me. Somebody saw me, heard me, knew me, understood me. He found joy in my existence, often because of his own determination to do so, not because I was making it apparent. He just loves me because I'm me and not him. If only one of us matters in this situation, from his perspective, it's me, not him. He wills my good for my sake, not his own, and even at his own expense. You seem to be using "love" to mean something like "like a whole lot," and maybe that's why unconditionality doesn't make sense. Love is an act of the will, not a response to a circumstance.

jxf 3y ago

I don't think that's what "unconditional love" means or should be taken to mean. It usually means that your ability to love someone is not contingent on an expectation of reciprocity. For example, an infant can't really verbalize affection, but you can nevertheless love them. Unconditional love also doesn't mean "no boundaries". You can love someone while insisting, for example, that they respect your autonomy or decisions.

Misdicorl 3y ago
Perhaps that's the intent, but I don't think so. It's root is in Christianity (I think?). God loves you no matter what and all that. I think you want a different term: though I'm struggling to come up with what it might be at the moment
- sacrosancty 3y ago
  [dead]
- lazyasciiart 3y ago
  If you love your child for who they are, then presumably you can describe what difference would make you not love them.
  - Misdicorl 3y ago
    Its hard to imagine, and would probably break me. Something like admitted, intentional, malicious, torture of our entire family for no benefit whatsoever might do it.

waithuh 3y ago

Well, unconditional love does originate from the favorable treats you mentioned, but its also the stories you had with them, your experiences, your ups and downs. Everything that made your life a little more worthwhile by simply standing by your side. Past a point, i believe it is impossible to end that relationship voluntarily, for both sides. If it was only because for who they are, I dont think your love for them would continue nor evolve, it would be a simple materialistic jealousy, never making it past conditions (hence, unconditional love).

bombcar 3y ago

You just defined unconditional love. If what they are and do is required - then if they stop doing you’d stop loving.