5 ms·

I have seen little evidence that there is such thing as natural ability, except in rare cases such as actual geniuses, where the elasticity of the brain cannot

by _8j50 3y ago

I have seen little evidence that there is such thing as natural ability, except in rare cases such as actual geniuses, where the elasticity of the brain cannot adapt to develop that ability. An important lesson children should be taught as earlu as possible is that effort is useless and wasteful if they fail. I agree with perhaps lowering the bar until they develop the skill, but fundamentally engraining tolerance for failure into a child is one of the worst things you can do to a human psyche. It's nearly impossible to remove that mindset later ok. In every aspect of their life they won't just fail, they'll use their supposed natural inability as an excuse for many other harmful ends! I am not suggesting making them feel like losers when they fail. What should happen is you tell them: "You failed and it's all your fault, but so long as you learn from your failure and keep trying to succeed, you are on the right path." Talent, effort, opportunities, genius all mean nothing in the real world without perseverance. The most talentess and clueless fool can succeed beyond anyone else simply by virtue of perseverance and discipline. Praising a child is making them associate a good emotion with the thing they are praised for. Don't let that thing be failure. Even worse, don't let them believe they are fundamentally flawed and handicapped when that isn't true. When they see other kids work hard and succeed, the conclusion is effort is enough because they are incapable anyways. I don't even know how the author put together such a horrible advice but please! If you insist on bringing a human into this world, don't ruin their chances in life over bullshit like this where the only purpose is to make insincere parents feel good about themselves. Do the right thing which is hard and uncomfortable.

zzzeek 3y ago
I'm nearly desperately hoping you really mean to say, "effort is useless and wasteful if they fail *and then quit out of frustration*" , or something like that (and that would also be horrible advice, just not quite as insane as what you seem to be proposing. even quitting something out of frustration is a learning experience). Teaching a child that failure is not an option is tantamount to psychological abuse. I shudder to imagine how petrified a child would be to take any steps toward anything at all with a deep fear of failure embedded. I suppose everything you've ever done, ride a bike never fell (failed), played sports your team never lost (failed), played an instrument never had a bad performance? (failed) Basically any skill or achievement whatsoever requires a very deep and foundational tolerance for repeated, frequent failure in order to achieve. Not sure how that isn't obvious...
- _8j50 3y ago
  > I'm nearly desperately hoping you really mean to say, "effort is useless and wasteful if they fail and then quit out of frustration" , or something like that (and that would also be horrible advice, just not quite as insane as what you seem to be proposing. even quitting something out of frustration is a learning experience). Sort of. Failire is failure. Period. You don't praise a child for failing. You metioned quitting but I didn't. You let them know they failed but then help them understand why and help them figure out what they can do about it. They are not a failure as a person because they failed at a task, failure and success does not define them, you should teach them that along with the lesson that failure must not be accepted without understanding the root cause and even then it is to be understood not praised. > Teaching a child that failure is not an option is tantamount to psychological abuse. I shudder to imagine how petrified a child would be to take any steps toward anything at all with a deep fear of failure embedded That's not what I said. Option or not, failure should not be praised,that's what I said. In fact, praising failure is fearing acknowledging what it really is. It's not failing that is terrible but acceptance of failure as a positive. Failure is essential to learn anything meaningful, but praising a child for failing means they won't progress past failing, you should teach them that while failure is terrible, it can be overcome and show them how to succeed and then earn praise. And if that isn't possible, work to understand that while they won't get praise for it, understanding why they can't succeed by learning from insurmountable failure will only make them better. > whatsoever requires a very deep and foundational tolerance for repeated, frequent failure in order to achieve. Not sure how that isn't obvious... That's very obvious, because you don't get a prize or reward for failing, that's why you keep failing until you succeed and then enjoy a well earned reward. Encouragement to keep failing until you succeed and praising for merely having effort but not succeeding are very different things.
  - zzzeek 3y ago
    I cant imagine you have kids. You can praise a child for failing as much as you want, they are never going to want to only fail. Our child has a deep fear of failure that has prevented them from moving forward with learning particular skills - to some extent it is definitely my own fault as a father as they were able to sense, no matter how much I tried to hide it, my inner dissatisfaction with some of this failure (VERY subtle, hidden, merely the lack of my positivity at their failure was all they needed to perceive to develop a pretty significant and demotivating fear of failure). So we are actually having to tell our child, "please go and try, and fail. we WANT you to fail. because if you aren't failing, you aren't even trying. So please feel free to FAIL as often as you need. the more you fail, the more you are trying". We are about as close to what you are describing as "rewarding for failure". To think that this means the kid is going to intentionally do poorly on things, well, that's not our kid and not any kid I've ever known, so what you are referring towards sounds like some kind of theoretical thought experiment with no basis in reality, and definitely something that would very easily lead kids like mine to be petrified of trying anything. my personal experience as a parent directly matches the point of view of this article, which refers to research from child development experts.
zer8k 3y ago
> I am not suggesting making them feel like losers when they fail. What should happen is you tell them: "You failed and it's all your fault, but so long as you learn from your failure and keep trying to succeed, you are on the right path." Something as simple as undoing the participation trophy culture we've created would go a long way. There is a lot of utility in developing a healthy attitude toward failure. The problem is the pendulum swung way too hard from "win or come back on your shield" to "everyone is a winner in their own special way". Reinforcing either of these will lead to developmental problems. Though, IMO, at least the first one partially reinforces perseverance even in the face of failure. > Praising a child is making them associate a good emotion with the thing they are praised for. Don't let that thing be failure. Even worse, don't let them believe they are fundamentally flawed and handicapped when that isn't true. When they see other kids work hard and succeed, the conclusion is effort is enough because they are incapable anyways. I can add some more here: you can try very hard and fail. Failing is important because it builds grit. Grit builds the necessary framework to succeed even against odds stacked against you. If you simply make things easier, or reward someone for trying, it releases the happy chemicals that make it acceptable to not try harder. Part of the benefit of programs like ROTC, some sports, etc is that it can take someone who is an amorphous blob of suck and turn them into something they can be proud of. There's a lot to be said about that. Maybe there's some sort of relationship between the reduction in PE programs and the increase in this sort of "accepting failure" behavior. You do not need to shark attack your child when they do poorly. However, you also should not praise them for being mediocre. Reinforce perseverance, as you suggest. It's your job to give your child the necessary framework to persist through struggle. Otherwise, as we have seen with many "adults", you end up with members of society who are fundamentally incapable of doing anything without constant praise. Casualties of the helicopter parenting generation.
- Terr_ 3y ago
  > Something as simple as undoing the participation trophy culture we've created would go a long way. My now-dated recollection is that most kids had no problem recognizing "participation" trophies as substandard and lacking prestige. Everybody--including the recipient--knew it wasn't a real win. They were something you sheepishly accepted hoping that you could minimize your time in the spotlight and that peers wouldn't somehow tease you for it. So, hypothesis: Participation trophies exist because of by pressure from parents. Either as a way for teachers/kids to mollify parents who want to see their child "win", or else parents who think they can trick their child into motivation. With that framing--cynical kids and mistaken adults--the "participation trophy culture" has wildly different problems and solutions.

by _8j50 3y ago

zzzeek 3y ago

I'm nearly desperately hoping you really mean to say, "effort is useless and wasteful if they fail *and then quit out of frustration*" , or something like that (and that would also be horrible advice, just not quite as insane as what you seem to be proposing. even quitting something out of frustration is a learning experience). Teaching a child that failure is not an option is tantamount to psychological abuse. I shudder to imagine how petrified a child would be to take any steps toward anything at all with a deep fear of failure embedded. I suppose everything you've ever done, ride a bike never fell (failed), played sports your team never lost (failed), played an instrument never had a bad performance? (failed) Basically any skill or achievement whatsoever requires a very deep and foundational tolerance for repeated, frequent failure in order to achieve. Not sure how that isn't obvious...

_8j50 3y ago
> I'm nearly desperately hoping you really mean to say, "effort is useless and wasteful if they fail and then quit out of frustration" , or something like that (and that would also be horrible advice, just not quite as insane as what you seem to be proposing. even quitting something out of frustration is a learning experience). Sort of. Failire is failure. Period. You don't praise a child for failing. You metioned quitting but I didn't. You let them know they failed but then help them understand why and help them figure out what they can do about it. They are not a failure as a person because they failed at a task, failure and success does not define them, you should teach them that along with the lesson that failure must not be accepted without understanding the root cause and even then it is to be understood not praised. > Teaching a child that failure is not an option is tantamount to psychological abuse. I shudder to imagine how petrified a child would be to take any steps toward anything at all with a deep fear of failure embedded That's not what I said. Option or not, failure should not be praised,that's what I said. In fact, praising failure is fearing acknowledging what it really is. It's not failing that is terrible but acceptance of failure as a positive. Failure is essential to learn anything meaningful, but praising a child for failing means they won't progress past failing, you should teach them that while failure is terrible, it can be overcome and show them how to succeed and then earn praise. And if that isn't possible, work to understand that while they won't get praise for it, understanding why they can't succeed by learning from insurmountable failure will only make them better. > whatsoever requires a very deep and foundational tolerance for repeated, frequent failure in order to achieve. Not sure how that isn't obvious... That's very obvious, because you don't get a prize or reward for failing, that's why you keep failing until you succeed and then enjoy a well earned reward. Encouragement to keep failing until you succeed and praising for merely having effort but not succeeding are very different things.
- zzzeek 3y ago
  I cant imagine you have kids. You can praise a child for failing as much as you want, they are never going to want to only fail. Our child has a deep fear of failure that has prevented them from moving forward with learning particular skills - to some extent it is definitely my own fault as a father as they were able to sense, no matter how much I tried to hide it, my inner dissatisfaction with some of this failure (VERY subtle, hidden, merely the lack of my positivity at their failure was all they needed to perceive to develop a pretty significant and demotivating fear of failure). So we are actually having to tell our child, "please go and try, and fail. we WANT you to fail. because if you aren't failing, you aren't even trying. So please feel free to FAIL as often as you need. the more you fail, the more you are trying". We are about as close to what you are describing as "rewarding for failure". To think that this means the kid is going to intentionally do poorly on things, well, that's not our kid and not any kid I've ever known, so what you are referring towards sounds like some kind of theoretical thought experiment with no basis in reality, and definitely something that would very easily lead kids like mine to be petrified of trying anything. my personal experience as a parent directly matches the point of view of this article, which refers to research from child development experts.

zer8k 3y ago

> I am not suggesting making them feel like losers when they fail. What should happen is you tell them: "You failed and it's all your fault, but so long as you learn from your failure and keep trying to succeed, you are on the right path." Something as simple as undoing the participation trophy culture we've created would go a long way. There is a lot of utility in developing a healthy attitude toward failure. The problem is the pendulum swung way too hard from "win or come back on your shield" to "everyone is a winner in their own special way". Reinforcing either of these will lead to developmental problems. Though, IMO, at least the first one partially reinforces perseverance even in the face of failure. > Praising a child is making them associate a good emotion with the thing they are praised for. Don't let that thing be failure. Even worse, don't let them believe they are fundamentally flawed and handicapped when that isn't true. When they see other kids work hard and succeed, the conclusion is effort is enough because they are incapable anyways. I can add some more here: you can try very hard and fail. Failing is important because it builds grit. Grit builds the necessary framework to succeed even against odds stacked against you. If you simply make things easier, or reward someone for trying, it releases the happy chemicals that make it acceptable to not try harder. Part of the benefit of programs like ROTC, some sports, etc is that it can take someone who is an amorphous blob of suck and turn them into something they can be proud of. There's a lot to be said about that. Maybe there's some sort of relationship between the reduction in PE programs and the increase in this sort of "accepting failure" behavior. You do not need to shark attack your child when they do poorly. However, you also should not praise them for being mediocre. Reinforce perseverance, as you suggest. It's your job to give your child the necessary framework to persist through struggle. Otherwise, as we have seen with many "adults", you end up with members of society who are fundamentally incapable of doing anything without constant praise. Casualties of the helicopter parenting generation.

Terr_ 3y ago
> Something as simple as undoing the participation trophy culture we've created would go a long way. My now-dated recollection is that most kids had no problem recognizing "participation" trophies as substandard and lacking prestige. Everybody--including the recipient--knew it wasn't a real win. They were something you sheepishly accepted hoping that you could minimize your time in the spotlight and that peers wouldn't somehow tease you for it. So, hypothesis: Participation trophies exist because of by pressure from parents. Either as a way for teachers/kids to mollify parents who want to see their child "win", or else parents who think they can trick their child into motivation. With that framing--cynical kids and mistaken adults--the "participation trophy culture" has wildly different problems and solutions.