5 ms·

They don't, you have mis-read the section: > If hip, hernia and cataract waiting lists had a similar mortality rate then tens of thousands would die before the

They don't, you have mis-read the section: > If hip, hernia and cataract waiting lists had a similar mortality rate then tens of thousands would die before they got their op. For these other types of operations there can be very long waiting lists, but these are not conditions from which people die suddenly without warning. The NHS has its problems, but I, for one, am glad that if I get a life-threatening condition I will be treated according to my need without having to bankrupt myself in the process. Additionally, I'm glad the insurance companies don't drive the pricing of quite cost effective drugs and treatments until they are out of range of the uninsured, even though they could easily be priced affordably.

adastra22 3y ago
He gave sufficient numbers to do the math on how many people die while waiting for their turn. It is thousands in this case. Regarding the NHS you are falling victim to the binary choice fallacy. It is not a strict choice between NHS’s model and the American hyper privatized healthcare. Where I’m writing this, Taiwan, there is a first-class healthcare system that has national single-payer insurance for all residents (only $27/mo!!), and generally no waiting list and patients can normally see any specialist they wish with walk-in appointments during usual working hours. You can have your cake and eat it too.
- sneak 3y ago
  Also, almost anyone who wishes can, at any time, fly to a country that has affordable and efficient healthcare and be a customer. I have friends (Americans) who have had procedures recently in South Korea, Turkiye, and Germany. Sometimes it's just easier and faster, and isn't that expensive even if you don't use insurance.
  - adastra22 3y ago
    That's why I'm in Taiwan right now :)
  - tenpies 3y ago
    I'm honestly surprised there is not an entire class of insurance programs for people who happen to live in a jurisdiction that has basically said "we would rather you die on a wait list than allow private healthcare" (e.g. British Columbia in Canada[1]). That insurance would cover healthcare abroad, maybe constrained to certain geographies and conditions. Unlike travel insurance it would assume that your care abroad is necessary due to a lack of services in your home jurisdiction. Perhaps the actuarial data is hard to collect, but I suspect it would be a booming business as most countries with socialised system seem to be heading towards a total decline, if not outright collapse. --- [1] https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/b-c-upholds-ban-on-private-health-care-clinics-but-case-expected-to-go-to-supreme-court https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/b-c-upholds-ban-on-priv...
- arrowsmith 3y ago
  > It is not a strict choice between NHS’s model and the American hyper privatized healthcare. You'd be amazed by how few people in the UK understand this.
  - lostlogin 3y ago
    Same goes for the US.
  - Loocid 3y ago
    Interesting that you framed it this way and not the other way around.
    - arrowsmith 3y ago
      I don't understand. "The other way around" compared to what?
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
- jopsen 3y ago
  > Taiwan, there is a first-class healthcare system that has national single-payer insurance for all residents (only $27/mo!!) How? At 27 USD/month/person, are you sure you're not failing to account for taxes and other government funding for healthcare? Don't get me wrong. Healthcare could be better and cheaper. We could train more doctors to lower wages :) But healthcare and care in general is a hard place to increase productivity. New treatments and drugs help, but anything advanced usually have to involve humans.
  - xeonmc 3y ago
    Secret to Taiwan’s healthcare: slave labor of the doctors.
    - adastra22 3y ago
      Doctors seem to get by just fine. They are paid a living wage like any professional, and take on little to no debt from medical school (one of the top schools is $4000/yr in tuition).
  - adastra22 3y ago
    Yes I said it was nationalized healthcare. But Taiwan’s tax burden isn’t oppressive either. Tax brackets are pretty similar to the US. They start by not paying the insane wages the rest of the first world has normalized. There is no reason a typical doctor should be expecting half a million $$ in total compensation. They also cut out a lot of middlemen. No private insurance. Doctors offices are also pharmacies. No domestic pharma industry abusing the paten system to extract rents from medications. Etc.
    - jopsen 3y ago
      > Yes I said it was nationalized healthcare. But Taiwan’s tax burden isn’t oppressive either. Yes, but let's be clear: It's not 27 USD / month per capita. I live in Denmark with public heathcare, it's not horrible, but wait times for non-critical things are longer than it was in the US (with a great insurance). Not that it's been a huge issue for me. In any case, I'm pretty sure our healthcare system is more than 27 USD/month per capita :D A random search for healthcare expenditure puts the number around 650 USD/month per capita (probably you can find a different number and make it larger/smaller, so I'd take this as a ballpark figure).
strangattractor 3y ago
I had the same surgery done in the good old US of A and I only had to wait 3 months to schedule surgery in the SF Bay area. How bout that for service;) Knocking the NHS is getting really tiresome. The US with it's private insurance is already making people wait and also not providing optimal outcomes while still being overly expensive. The fact is either system can work - but we as a society have not prioritized the necessary training in volume to make these highly technical jobs available at scale. [1] 28K new doctors are minted in the US each year. [2] Predicted shortfall of doctors up 124K by 2034 [1] https://www.google.com/search?q=how+many+doctors+graduate+each+year+in+the+US&rlz=1C5CHFA_enUS849US849&oq=how+many+doctors+graduate+each+year+in+the+US&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOdIBCTE2MjY1ajBqN6gCALACAA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 https://www.google.com/search?q=how+many+doctors+graduate+ea... [2] https://www.aamc.org/news/aging-patients-and-doctors-drive-nation-s-physician-shortage https://www.aamc.org/news/aging-patients-and-doctors-drive-n...

adastra22 3y ago

He gave sufficient numbers to do the math on how many people die while waiting for their turn. It is thousands in this case. Regarding the NHS you are falling victim to the binary choice fallacy. It is not a strict choice between NHS’s model and the American hyper privatized healthcare. Where I’m writing this, Taiwan, there is a first-class healthcare system that has national single-payer insurance for all residents (only $27/mo!!), and generally no waiting list and patients can normally see any specialist they wish with walk-in appointments during usual working hours. You can have your cake and eat it too.

sneak 3y ago
Also, almost anyone who wishes can, at any time, fly to a country that has affordable and efficient healthcare and be a customer. I have friends (Americans) who have had procedures recently in South Korea, Turkiye, and Germany. Sometimes it's just easier and faster, and isn't that expensive even if you don't use insurance.
- adastra22 3y ago
  That's why I'm in Taiwan right now :)
- tenpies 3y ago
  I'm honestly surprised there is not an entire class of insurance programs for people who happen to live in a jurisdiction that has basically said "we would rather you die on a wait list than allow private healthcare" (e.g. British Columbia in Canada[1]). That insurance would cover healthcare abroad, maybe constrained to certain geographies and conditions. Unlike travel insurance it would assume that your care abroad is necessary due to a lack of services in your home jurisdiction. Perhaps the actuarial data is hard to collect, but I suspect it would be a booming business as most countries with socialised system seem to be heading towards a total decline, if not outright collapse. --- [1] https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/b-c-upholds-ban-on-private-health-care-clinics-but-case-expected-to-go-to-supreme-court https://nationalpost.com/news/canada/b-c-upholds-ban-on-priv...
arrowsmith 3y ago
> It is not a strict choice between NHS’s model and the American hyper privatized healthcare. You'd be amazed by how few people in the UK understand this.
- lostlogin 3y ago
  Same goes for the US.
- Loocid 3y ago
  Interesting that you framed it this way and not the other way around.
  - arrowsmith 3y ago
    I don't understand. "The other way around" compared to what?
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
jopsen 3y ago
> Taiwan, there is a first-class healthcare system that has national single-payer insurance for all residents (only $27/mo!!) How? At 27 USD/month/person, are you sure you're not failing to account for taxes and other government funding for healthcare? Don't get me wrong. Healthcare could be better and cheaper. We could train more doctors to lower wages :) But healthcare and care in general is a hard place to increase productivity. New treatments and drugs help, but anything advanced usually have to involve humans.
- xeonmc 3y ago
  Secret to Taiwan’s healthcare: slave labor of the doctors.
  - adastra22 3y ago
    Doctors seem to get by just fine. They are paid a living wage like any professional, and take on little to no debt from medical school (one of the top schools is $4000/yr in tuition).
- adastra22 3y ago
  Yes I said it was nationalized healthcare. But Taiwan’s tax burden isn’t oppressive either. Tax brackets are pretty similar to the US. They start by not paying the insane wages the rest of the first world has normalized. There is no reason a typical doctor should be expecting half a million $$ in total compensation. They also cut out a lot of middlemen. No private insurance. Doctors offices are also pharmacies. No domestic pharma industry abusing the paten system to extract rents from medications. Etc.
  - jopsen 3y ago
    > Yes I said it was nationalized healthcare. But Taiwan’s tax burden isn’t oppressive either. Yes, but let's be clear: It's not 27 USD / month per capita. I live in Denmark with public heathcare, it's not horrible, but wait times for non-critical things are longer than it was in the US (with a great insurance). Not that it's been a huge issue for me. In any case, I'm pretty sure our healthcare system is more than 27 USD/month per capita :D A random search for healthcare expenditure puts the number around 650 USD/month per capita (probably you can find a different number and make it larger/smaller, so I'd take this as a ballpark figure).

strangattractor 3y ago

I had the same surgery done in the good old US of A and I only had to wait 3 months to schedule surgery in the SF Bay area. How bout that for service;) Knocking the NHS is getting really tiresome. The US with it's private insurance is already making people wait and also not providing optimal outcomes while still being overly expensive. The fact is either system can work - but we as a society have not prioritized the necessary training in volume to make these highly technical jobs available at scale. [1] 28K new doctors are minted in the US each year. [2] Predicted shortfall of doctors up 124K by 2034 [1] https://www.google.com/search?q=how+many+doctors+graduate+each+year+in+the+US&rlz=1C5CHFA_enUS849US849&oq=how+many+doctors+graduate+each+year+in+the+US&gs_lcrp=EgZjaHJvbWUyBggAEEUYOdIBCTE2MjY1ajBqN6gCALACAA&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8 https://www.google.com/search?q=how+many+doctors+graduate+ea... [2] https://www.aamc.org/news/aging-patients-and-doctors-drive-nation-s-physician-shortage https://www.aamc.org/news/aging-patients-and-doctors-drive-n...