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Joel Spolksy has an interesting quote about this: "Third, and trust me on this, there’s still an incredible shortage of the really good programmers, here and i

Joel Spolksy has an interesting quote about this: "Third, and trust me on this, there’s still an incredible shortage of the really good programmers, here and in India. Yes, there are a bunch of out of work IT people making a lot of noise about how long they’ve been out of work, but you know what? At the risk of pissing them off, really good programmers do have jobs" From: https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2005/01/02/advice-for-computer-science-college-students/ https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2005/01/02/advice-for-compute...

lylejantzi3rd 3y ago
Dan Luu has an interesting post about it as well. https://danluu.com/hiring-lemons/ https://danluu.com/hiring-lemons/
- red-iron-pine 3y ago
  From about half-way down the post: " At the last conference I attended, I asked most people I met two questions: Do you know of any companies that aren't highly dysfunctional? Do you know of any particular teams that are great and are hiring? Not one single person told me that their company meets the criteria in (1). A few people suggested that, maybe, Dropbox is ok, or that, maybe, Jane Street is ok, but the answers were of the form 'I know a few people there and I haven't heard any terrible horror stories yet, plus I sometimes hear good stories', not 'that company is great and you should definitely work there'. Most people said that they didn't know of any companies that weren't a total mess. "
  - ornornor 3y ago
    I struggle with that. I loathe looking for work again because I know I’ll end up somewhere fucked up selling my soul and wearing myself out y til I have to quit again to recharge and reset the cycle. Sometimes I wish I had a totally different profession.
ardit33 3y ago
Joel is wrong. The 2001-2003 timeframe was very hard to find a job, even if you were a really good engineer. There is a good reason Open Source development exploded during those years, as there were a lot of unemployed or 'underemployed' good engineers that had time to do some open source work while looking for a job. By 2005 (when that article was written), the market had already recovered, and what he said is true (good engineers had already found a job), but that doesn't negate the fact that 2001-2002 was bad even for good engineers.
- acdha 3y ago
  One big confound was the gap between national averages and the Bay Area. I knew a ton of people who ended up finding jobs at large businesses, higher education, government, etc. which they weren’t looking at during the height of the dotcom bubble. None of those places had had an easy time hiring then, but also that almost always meant relocating.
WarOnPrivacy 3y ago
> At the risk of pissing them off, really good programmers do have jobs Which doesn't at-all reflect the reality implied by abysmal hiring practices - recited on this page again and again and again.
lowbloodsugar 3y ago
That’s from 2005.
rr808 3y ago
> really good programmers do have jobs Maybe when he says "reall good programmers" he means the super productive people he's friends with. I know everyone on HN thinks they're in the top 10% of programmers, but realistically most of us are average or worse.
ilc 3y ago
Wow... did you take that out of context IMHO. It is a whole paper about how becoming a programmer is a good choice, and that good programmers can find a place in the world. To my eyes: There are two things needed for a "great programmer" to happen. 1. A programmer with good to great skills. 2. A company that they fit into. You may work out in company A, it works well for you. You can hit max productivity there. For me, A may be one of the worst ideas EVER, for various reasons. I'd do better at B, where you might fail. A and B might even just be a large company and a small company, there is a big difference. ... So while I agree with Joel in context. I disagree with YOU.
caminante 3y ago
"this" is different. Your quote's from a general article addressing CS undergrads still in school and further, from a subsection dismissing fears about an outright collapse in CS jobs outside of India. Meanwhile, the parent's saying use your network, and there's plenty of demand for good developers.
throwaway081323 3y ago
I think there's some truth to this. Made a throwaway to comment but I am (~15 yrs exp) making around 500k total comp and have a $400k base salary job waiting for me if I were to lose this job (but way more hours). If you have a strong network, use it. Cold hires are what's really hard right now.
- lylejantzi3rd 3y ago
  A strong network isn't the silver bullet most people think it is. It'll get you bumped to the front of the line, but that's it. You still have to ace whatever crazy 10-round interview process that company has set up.

lylejantzi3rd 3y ago

Dan Luu has an interesting post about it as well. https://danluu.com/hiring-lemons/ https://danluu.com/hiring-lemons/

red-iron-pine 3y ago
From about half-way down the post: " At the last conference I attended, I asked most people I met two questions: Do you know of any companies that aren't highly dysfunctional? Do you know of any particular teams that are great and are hiring? Not one single person told me that their company meets the criteria in (1). A few people suggested that, maybe, Dropbox is ok, or that, maybe, Jane Street is ok, but the answers were of the form 'I know a few people there and I haven't heard any terrible horror stories yet, plus I sometimes hear good stories', not 'that company is great and you should definitely work there'. Most people said that they didn't know of any companies that weren't a total mess. "
- ornornor 3y ago
  I struggle with that. I loathe looking for work again because I know I’ll end up somewhere fucked up selling my soul and wearing myself out y til I have to quit again to recharge and reset the cycle. Sometimes I wish I had a totally different profession.

ardit33 3y ago

Joel is wrong. The 2001-2003 timeframe was very hard to find a job, even if you were a really good engineer. There is a good reason Open Source development exploded during those years, as there were a lot of unemployed or 'underemployed' good engineers that had time to do some open source work while looking for a job. By 2005 (when that article was written), the market had already recovered, and what he said is true (good engineers had already found a job), but that doesn't negate the fact that 2001-2002 was bad even for good engineers.

acdha 3y ago
One big confound was the gap between national averages and the Bay Area. I knew a ton of people who ended up finding jobs at large businesses, higher education, government, etc. which they weren’t looking at during the height of the dotcom bubble. None of those places had had an easy time hiring then, but also that almost always meant relocating.

WarOnPrivacy 3y ago

> At the risk of pissing them off, really good programmers do have jobs Which doesn't at-all reflect the reality implied by abysmal hiring practices - recited on this page again and again and again.

lowbloodsugar 3y ago

That’s from 2005.

rr808 3y ago

> really good programmers do have jobs Maybe when he says "reall good programmers" he means the super productive people he's friends with. I know everyone on HN thinks they're in the top 10% of programmers, but realistically most of us are average or worse.

ilc 3y ago

Wow... did you take that out of context IMHO. It is a whole paper about how becoming a programmer is a good choice, and that good programmers can find a place in the world. To my eyes: There are two things needed for a "great programmer" to happen. 1. A programmer with good to great skills. 2. A company that they fit into. You may work out in company A, it works well for you. You can hit max productivity there. For me, A may be one of the worst ideas EVER, for various reasons. I'd do better at B, where you might fail. A and B might even just be a large company and a small company, there is a big difference. ... So while I agree with Joel in context. I disagree with YOU.

caminante 3y ago

"this" is different. Your quote's from a general article addressing CS undergrads still in school and further, from a subsection dismissing fears about an outright collapse in CS jobs outside of India. Meanwhile, the parent's saying use your network, and there's plenty of demand for good developers.

throwaway081323 3y ago

I think there's some truth to this. Made a throwaway to comment but I am (~15 yrs exp) making around 500k total comp and have a $400k base salary job waiting for me if I were to lose this job (but way more hours). If you have a strong network, use it. Cold hires are what's really hard right now.

lylejantzi3rd 3y ago
A strong network isn't the silver bullet most people think it is. It'll get you bumped to the front of the line, but that's it. You still have to ace whatever crazy 10-round interview process that company has set up.