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There is plenty of room in America for both. I have no idea why you phrased it as either or. Why do you think folks who walked thousands of miles to somewhere

There is plenty of room in America for both. I have no idea why you phrased it as either or. Why do you think folks who walked thousands of miles to somewhere nobody would receive them to build a better life for their family mostly through backbreaking Labor would be a shitty American? Less kindly the Average Appalachian voted to reinstall a reality TV star who wants to end democracy. I don't think Appalachians on average actually share our values.

rayiner 3y ago
People are really saying the quiet parts out loud in this thread. > Why do you think folks who walked thousands of miles to somewhere nobody would receive them to build a better life for their family mostly through backbreaking Labor would be a shitty American? Because there’s more to being an American than willingness to engage in backbreaking labor? > Less kindly the Average Appalachian voted to reinstall a reality TV star who wants to end democracy. I don't think Appalachians on average actually share our values. What does “democracy” mean? Does it refer to collective self-government, or just harvesting the most ballots from everyone we can shove into the country? A certain party wouldn’t have won any elections in recent memory without the support of people who weren’t born in America, who are just giving their vote to whoever promises them material support. Is that democracy?
- dctoedt 3y ago
  >> Why do you think folks who walked thousands of miles to somewhere nobody would receive them to build a better life for their family mostly through backbreaking Labor would be a shitty American? As a group they tend to be great Americans — the backbreaking labor is just part of it; the main story is that we all benefit from an influx of immigrants who have demonstrated the ability to formulate and execute an action plan to try to improve their and their families' lives in the face of difficult circumstances — hmm, sounds like entrepreneurial startup founders, no? > A certain party wouldn’t have won any elections in recent memory without the support of people who weren’t born in America, who are just giving their vote to whoever promises them material support. Is that democracy? You really think that's why Democrats win?
  - ddd00001 3y ago
    "As a group they tend to be great Americans" There is not a single group of Central Americans that have positive fiscal impact over their lifetime. Their kids are also not becoming doctors and engineers.
    - ddd00001 3y ago
      By the way, I'm totally fine with allowing some number of people that we know are going to be fiscal negatives (likely into perpetuity) come to the country. There does need to be some aspect of empathy in the immigration system. That being said, those left of center are just so naive about this topic. Noticing differences in groups is so taboo that they throw common sense out of the window.
      - dctoedt 3y ago
        > There does need to be some aspect of empathy in the immigration system. Agreed; glad you think so too. > Noticing differences in groups is so taboo that they throw common sense out of the window. The problem is that "common sense" often proves to be neither, because we're quite capable of grossly misjudging what constitutes valuable human capital. Recall that we used to deny adult citizens the right to vote, or to serve on juries or in public office, unless they were white male property owners over 21 years old — who knows how much society lost as a result by way of productivity, and how many such men were actually counterproductive.
        ddd00001 3y ago
        Wow you convinced me, there is no difference between any group of people and we should just take in the entire population of Central America. There will be no negative effects whatsoever. In fact you could swap the population of Beijing with that of Guatemala and you would see no difference whatsoever. You are so smart dctoedt.
        dctoedt 3y ago

rayiner 3y ago

People are really saying the quiet parts out loud in this thread. > Why do you think folks who walked thousands of miles to somewhere nobody would receive them to build a better life for their family mostly through backbreaking Labor would be a shitty American? Because there’s more to being an American than willingness to engage in backbreaking labor? > Less kindly the Average Appalachian voted to reinstall a reality TV star who wants to end democracy. I don't think Appalachians on average actually share our values. What does “democracy” mean? Does it refer to collective self-government, or just harvesting the most ballots from everyone we can shove into the country? A certain party wouldn’t have won any elections in recent memory without the support of people who weren’t born in America, who are just giving their vote to whoever promises them material support. Is that democracy?

dctoedt 3y ago
>> Why do you think folks who walked thousands of miles to somewhere nobody would receive them to build a better life for their family mostly through backbreaking Labor would be a shitty American? As a group they tend to be great Americans — the backbreaking labor is just part of it; the main story is that we all benefit from an influx of immigrants who have demonstrated the ability to formulate and execute an action plan to try to improve their and their families' lives in the face of difficult circumstances — hmm, sounds like entrepreneurial startup founders, no? > A certain party wouldn’t have won any elections in recent memory without the support of people who weren’t born in America, who are just giving their vote to whoever promises them material support. Is that democracy? You really think that's why Democrats win?
- ddd00001 3y ago
  "As a group they tend to be great Americans" There is not a single group of Central Americans that have positive fiscal impact over their lifetime. Their kids are also not becoming doctors and engineers.
  - ddd00001 3y ago
    By the way, I'm totally fine with allowing some number of people that we know are going to be fiscal negatives (likely into perpetuity) come to the country. There does need to be some aspect of empathy in the immigration system. That being said, those left of center are just so naive about this topic. Noticing differences in groups is so taboo that they throw common sense out of the window.
    - dctoedt 3y ago
      > There does need to be some aspect of empathy in the immigration system. Agreed; glad you think so too. > Noticing differences in groups is so taboo that they throw common sense out of the window. The problem is that "common sense" often proves to be neither, because we're quite capable of grossly misjudging what constitutes valuable human capital. Recall that we used to deny adult citizens the right to vote, or to serve on juries or in public office, unless they were white male property owners over 21 years old — who knows how much society lost as a result by way of productivity, and how many such men were actually counterproductive.
      - ddd00001 3y ago
        Wow you convinced me, there is no difference between any group of people and we should just take in the entire population of Central America. There will be no negative effects whatsoever. In fact you could swap the population of Beijing with that of Guatemala and you would see no difference whatsoever. You are so smart dctoedt.
        dctoedt 3y ago