3 ms·

Calculus is necessary I agree. It’s very important. It wasn't invented as a set of restrictions, it was just just discovered and formalized. That’s a bit too

Calculus is necessary I agree. It’s very important. It wasn't invented as a set of restrictions, it was just just discovered and formalized. That’s a bit too casual of a dismissal of an active, major branch of philosophy of mathematics which holds that all mathematics is invented. For fun, and what I take as evidence supporting that argument, look up Michael Penn on YouTube to see how nonstandard analysis works and how you can define the operations of calculus in vastly different ways than you might have learned in school. The main difference between calculus and monads is that the former traditionally belongs to the domain of analysis and the latter to algebra. That monads haven’t taken off to the same degree is a matter of luck. The vast majority of mathematics has found no use whatsoever outside of pure mathematics. Finally, I want to say that I think it’s a mistake to think of monads as some set of restrictions that Haskell’s designers put in place to keep people out, like some twisted “you must be this tall to ride the rollercoaster” gatekeeping. They discovered an algebraic pattern in a bunch of commonly used data types and decided to make it into a type class. For them, it solved a major problem of the language at the time: how to deal with effects in a language that uses lazy evaluation.

CyberDildonics 3y ago
That’s a bit too casual of a dismissal of an active, major branch of philosophy of mathematics which holds that all mathematics is invented. This is the problem. You keep talking about "philosophy of mathematics" and I'm talking about programming. Finally, I want to say that I think it’s a mistake to think of monads as some set of restrictions that Haskell’s designers put in place to keep people out, like some twisted “you must be this tall to ride the rollercoaster” gatekeeping. I don't know if anyone thinks that. It just isn't useful to write programs with an arbitrary albatross around your neck because someone else is obsessed with philosophy and set theory.
- chongli 3y ago
  You keep talking about "philosophy of mathematics" and I'm talking about programming. You made a specific claim that calculus was discovered but that monads are invented. Are you walking back that claim? Fine. It just isn't useful to write programs with an arbitrary albatross around your neck because someone else is obsessed with philosophy and set theory. I've tried to engage with you in good faith but now it appears that you're just concern trolling. The article is an educational piece about monad transformers. Nowhere is it implied that you, specifically, need to use Haskell in your work. If you can't see why monads are useful, why not ask about that?
  - CyberDildonics 3y ago
    but that monads are invented No I didn't, I said haskell was invented. Are you walking back that claim? Fine. Quote me where I said that. I've tried to engage with you in good faith You haven't engaged in the thing that matters: programming. You went off on tangents about philosophy and monads and set theory and pure mathematics, when my whole point is that they don't help the vast majority of programmers write programs. Nowhere is it implied that you, specifically, need to use Haskell in your work. I don't. I tried it and it was interesting but not useful. If you can't see why monads are useful, why not ask about that? My point is about the larger issue that after 30 years, people are still trying to explain step one of this language. In that time entire other languages have exploded and withered. At some point the expectations that this is healthy needs to be looked at. I like that haskell exists, but it isn't overall a good tool for making software.

CyberDildonics 3y ago

That’s a bit too casual of a dismissal of an active, major branch of philosophy of mathematics which holds that all mathematics is invented. This is the problem. You keep talking about "philosophy of mathematics" and I'm talking about programming. Finally, I want to say that I think it’s a mistake to think of monads as some set of restrictions that Haskell’s designers put in place to keep people out, like some twisted “you must be this tall to ride the rollercoaster” gatekeeping. I don't know if anyone thinks that. It just isn't useful to write programs with an arbitrary albatross around your neck because someone else is obsessed with philosophy and set theory.

chongli 3y ago
You keep talking about "philosophy of mathematics" and I'm talking about programming. You made a specific claim that calculus was discovered but that monads are invented. Are you walking back that claim? Fine. It just isn't useful to write programs with an arbitrary albatross around your neck because someone else is obsessed with philosophy and set theory. I've tried to engage with you in good faith but now it appears that you're just concern trolling. The article is an educational piece about monad transformers. Nowhere is it implied that you, specifically, need to use Haskell in your work. If you can't see why monads are useful, why not ask about that?
- CyberDildonics 3y ago
  but that monads are invented No I didn't, I said haskell was invented. Are you walking back that claim? Fine. Quote me where I said that. I've tried to engage with you in good faith You haven't engaged in the thing that matters: programming. You went off on tangents about philosophy and monads and set theory and pure mathematics, when my whole point is that they don't help the vast majority of programmers write programs. Nowhere is it implied that you, specifically, need to use Haskell in your work. I don't. I tried it and it was interesting but not useful. If you can't see why monads are useful, why not ask about that? My point is about the larger issue that after 30 years, people are still trying to explain step one of this language. In that time entire other languages have exploded and withered. At some point the expectations that this is healthy needs to be looked at. I like that haskell exists, but it isn't overall a good tool for making software.