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I'll take this opportunity to address the rail haters' main point against high speed rail in America: the fact that we all need cars at our destinations, Americ

by dangus 3y ago

I'll take this opportunity to address the rail haters' main point against high speed rail in America: the fact that we all need cars at our destinations, America is too big and spread out, etc. Every time I hear that argument I have to point out the millions of American short hop regional flights that are taken each year. Millions of people already use rideshares, taxis, and rent cars at their destinations. Just observe the scale of your own airport's rental car center. I think that high speed rail in Texas can sustain itself and be more economically and environmentally efficient almost solely on business travelers whose status quo involves driving between city centers and being paid for mileage. A business traveler between Dallas and Houston will bill their company for 240 miles. At IRS standard 65.5 cents per mile, that's $157 worth of total cost being A high speed train could probably be a profit-generating enterprise at half that ticket price, and businesses would pay a premium for it to save time over driving. Also, the business travelers can do work while on the train rather than focusing on driving. That cost and time savings can buy a lot of Uber rides and parking garage fees.

ghaff 3y ago
I'm not a rail hater. I typically take the train to NYC although that's because I hate driving into Manhattan and getting into the city from the NYC airports is awful. However, I used to travel to Houston all the time from New Orleans and I flew. That's more like a 5 hour drive (vs. 3-4 from Houston to Dallas) and I rented a car when I got there. Where I was going was basically never in anything like a city center. Having to or wanting to rent a car when you travel to somewhere does significantly lessen the potential train advantage of dropping you off in downtown if that's not where you need to be.
OfSanguineFire 3y ago
> Just observe the scale of your own airport's rental car center. Airports are usually at the outskirts of cities where land is abundant. Central train stations are just that, central. Would there really be enough free land in downtown Houston and Dallas to create huge new car-rental infrastructure?
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
cryptonector 3y ago
> Every time I hear that argument I have to point out the millions of American short hop regional flights Those routes didn't need tens of $billions in land acquisition and construction costs.
- icegreentea2 3y ago
  While airports do scale their capital costs somewhat differently (better?), airports are actually multi-billion dollar construction projects. Here's Dallas' 5 billion dollar airport expansion plan (https://spectrumlocalnews.com/tx/dallas-fort-worth/news/2023/05/16/-4-8b-dfw-airport-expansion-plan-includes-construction-of-6th-terminal- https://spectrumlocalnews.com/tx/dallas-fort-worth/news/2023...), and here's Houston's 1.3 billion dollar terminal expansion (https://www.click2houston.com/news/local/2021/08/17/billion-dollar-budget-for-new-international-terminal-at-bush-intercontinental-airport-rising-again/ https://www.click2houston.com/news/local/2021/08/17/billion-...)
  - cryptonector 3y ago
    > While airports do scale their capital costs somewhat differently (better?), Uh, yeah: - 1 airport == unlimited direct routes (limited only by the airport's runways) - 1 airport == unlimited indirect routes vs - 1 rail line == 1 direct route - 1 rail line == small number of ind. routes It's really obvious. > Here's Dallas' 5 billion dollar airport expansion plan $5bn buys a few miles of conventional train tracks. Bullet train tracks cost more. $5bn is nothing for trains. $5bn buys a bunch of gates and/or a runway+ at an airport, which can greatly increase capacity. And these $bns are $bns of other people's money if we're talking about trains because they'll never turn a profit. I don't think trains have been profitable ever in the U.S., at least not since the 1880s. Air travel is often profitable for all involved (or can be).
revscat 3y ago
The political and financial systems are corrupted by auto manufacturers/dealers and the petroleum industry. Those groups will never allow anything which leads to less driving or fewer cars. America is spread out because it serves the fossil fuel interests for cities to be zoned to their benefit.
mcpackieh 3y ago
> millions of American short hop regional flights that are taken each year. "Millions of Americans" could be less than 1% of Americans. How do the short hop regional flight numbers compare to the number of American driving equivalent distances? Intrastate flights can be better than typical flying if you're using regional airports without the TSA, but these aren't the kind of airports near major population centers. There are a few scenarios where roads aren't an option, particularly Hawaii where short-hop flights are competing with ferries, not roads. Hawaii alone is probably a substantial fraction of that millions.
cryptonector 3y ago
Just how many such business travelers between Houston and Dallas are there really? How many trips do they do per-year? You need these numbers to make the argument you're making. I suspect the number is minuscule by comparison to what it needs to be to justify this investment [expense].

by dangus 3y ago

ghaff 3y ago

I'm not a rail hater. I typically take the train to NYC although that's because I hate driving into Manhattan and getting into the city from the NYC airports is awful. However, I used to travel to Houston all the time from New Orleans and I flew. That's more like a 5 hour drive (vs. 3-4 from Houston to Dallas) and I rented a car when I got there. Where I was going was basically never in anything like a city center. Having to or wanting to rent a car when you travel to somewhere does significantly lessen the potential train advantage of dropping you off in downtown if that's not where you need to be.

OfSanguineFire 3y ago

> Just observe the scale of your own airport's rental car center. Airports are usually at the outskirts of cities where land is abundant. Central train stations are just that, central. Would there really be enough free land in downtown Houston and Dallas to create huge new car-rental infrastructure?

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

cryptonector 3y ago

> Every time I hear that argument I have to point out the millions of American short hop regional flights Those routes didn't need tens of $billions in land acquisition and construction costs.

icegreentea2 3y ago
While airports do scale their capital costs somewhat differently (better?), airports are actually multi-billion dollar construction projects. Here's Dallas' 5 billion dollar airport expansion plan (https://spectrumlocalnews.com/tx/dallas-fort-worth/news/2023/05/16/-4-8b-dfw-airport-expansion-plan-includes-construction-of-6th-terminal- https://spectrumlocalnews.com/tx/dallas-fort-worth/news/2023...), and here's Houston's 1.3 billion dollar terminal expansion (https://www.click2houston.com/news/local/2021/08/17/billion-dollar-budget-for-new-international-terminal-at-bush-intercontinental-airport-rising-again/ https://www.click2houston.com/news/local/2021/08/17/billion-...)
- cryptonector 3y ago
  > While airports do scale their capital costs somewhat differently (better?), Uh, yeah: - 1 airport == unlimited direct routes (limited only by the airport's runways) - 1 airport == unlimited indirect routes vs - 1 rail line == 1 direct route - 1 rail line == small number of ind. routes It's really obvious. > Here's Dallas' 5 billion dollar airport expansion plan $5bn buys a few miles of conventional train tracks. Bullet train tracks cost more. $5bn is nothing for trains. $5bn buys a bunch of gates and/or a runway+ at an airport, which can greatly increase capacity. And these $bns are $bns of other people's money if we're talking about trains because they'll never turn a profit. I don't think trains have been profitable ever in the U.S., at least not since the 1880s. Air travel is often profitable for all involved (or can be).

revscat 3y ago

The political and financial systems are corrupted by auto manufacturers/dealers and the petroleum industry. Those groups will never allow anything which leads to less driving or fewer cars. America is spread out because it serves the fossil fuel interests for cities to be zoned to their benefit.

mcpackieh 3y ago

> millions of American short hop regional flights that are taken each year. "Millions of Americans" could be less than 1% of Americans. How do the short hop regional flight numbers compare to the number of American driving equivalent distances? Intrastate flights can be better than typical flying if you're using regional airports without the TSA, but these aren't the kind of airports near major population centers. There are a few scenarios where roads aren't an option, particularly Hawaii where short-hop flights are competing with ferries, not roads. Hawaii alone is probably a substantial fraction of that millions.

cryptonector 3y ago

Just how many such business travelers between Houston and Dallas are there really? How many trips do they do per-year? You need these numbers to make the argument you're making. I suspect the number is minuscule by comparison to what it needs to be to justify this investment [expense].