(I'm not sure we disagree very much on what to do, but mostly on how we think about it?) > My point was that physical violence is a severe punishment and not c

(I'm not sure we disagree very much on what to do, but mostly on how we think about it?) > My point was that physical violence is a severe punishment and not cleaning up after yourself does not seem like it warrants such a severe punishment. I understood that to be your point when I wrote my response, fwiw. > If your child won't listen to you after punishment one step below physical violence, going further probably isn't going to help. Maybe your objection to physical punishment isn't "it is too harsh a punishment for refusing to clean up" but instead "I don't think it will work"? > I really hate "when I require you to do something you have to do it" as a reason. Always hated it as a kid, still hate it as an adult. I hope I only use it very sparingly when I have children. Agreed! It is a a very large exercise of authority to require someone to do something regardless of whether they agree. So I rarely require the kids to clean up, even though at this point my oldest is nine. Instead, it's usually something like not being willing to help them start something new until they have cleaned up what they were already working on.