5 ms·

I like UTM too. I must be doing something wrong though. I created both X86 Ubuntu and Debian 10 VMs. They are usable, but not quick. I have been blown away how

I like UTM too. I must be doing something wrong though. I created both X86 Ubuntu and Debian 10 VMs. They are usable, but not quick. I have been blown away how fast Rosetta 2 x86 programs run my m1. The arm embedded gcc too chain compile code 4x faster than the native x86 MBPro from a year or so ago. But the UTM VMs run about 3x slower.

58028641 3y ago
I think it would be faster to use an ARM64 VM and use Rosetta, FEX-Emu, or Box64 for x86 programs inside the VM.
fabiensanglard 3y ago
Are you using emulation or virtualization? You mention x86 versions but the M1 uses arm64. That may be why it is slow.
warvariuc 3y ago
I use Ubuntu in UTM, but I installed the ARM64 server version, then the desktop packages.
- j-a-a-p 3y ago
  Interesting, this results in a fully functional desktop version? I have a M2 and the hardware is great, but the OS that came with it not so. If I could replace the OS with Ubuntu that would be great. (Windows would also be great, but I have no experience in installing that)
  - bombcar 3y ago
    Yes. You wouldn’t replace the OS but you can make UTM full screen and hardly notice it’s not the main os There are attempts to run Linux on the Mac natively but they have limitations. You can also get utilities that abuse Mac OS to make it imitate windows or Linux if you want.
    - SamuelAdams 3y ago
      I almost always use my MacBook Pro in clamshell mode attached to a thunderbolt dock for external displays. Right now Ashai Linux does not support thunderbolt, however it is a work in progress. Does UTM work well with external displays? Preferably in full screen?
  - warvariuc 3y ago
    > Interesting, this results in a fully functional desktop version? It's very snappy. I run Firefox to work with my Internet banking site in an isolated environment. I installed KDE -- I am very satisfied.
ace2358 3y ago
The article mentions that they are using virtualisation (arm Linux and Windows on Arm MacOS and M1) not emulation (Ubuntu and Debian x86 by emulation on arm on MacOS and m1). Emulation is slow sadly. Virtualisation is approaching native speed. “Both Ubuntu and Windows run at native speed since they are virtualized instead of emulated.”
supriyo-biswas 3y ago
I've had some great results using Orbstack's x86 Linux VMs, though primarily for Linux development.
vbezhenar 3y ago
You can't run x86 Linux quickly on macOS. What you can do is to run ARM Linux quickly on macOS and run x86 programs inside of that Linux with Rosetta quickly.
- WanderPanda 3y ago
  Wait you can use Rosetta inside a Linux VM?
  - Tepix 3y ago
    Indeed: https://docs.getutm.app/advanced/rosetta/ https://docs.getutm.app/advanced/rosetta/
  - easeout 3y ago
    Yes, see Apple's documentation: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/virtualization/running_intel_binaries_in_linux_vms_with_rosetta https://developer.apple.com/documentation/virtualization/run...
- rlupi 3y ago
  Am I missing something? Is this quicker just because you are emulating only the program and not the OS?
  - bombcar 3y ago
    Yes. If you run x86 Linux in a VM on an M1 you are emulating/translating every single instruction; with a native OS you are only translating the application.
  - vbezhenar 3y ago
    It is quicker because Rosetta is a proprietary Apple technology which apparently works superb, but only supports userspace code. Emulating x86 with qemu does not work as fast, unfortunately. I'm not qualified enough to judge whether it's qemu shortcoming or it's just not possible to emulate entire VM as efficiently, but the practical result for today is that you want to use Rosetta.
j-a-a-p 3y ago
Yes, before installing read that UTM uses Qemu and did not pursue it any further. AFAIK only Mac runs on apple silicon, everything else is emulated.
- easeout 3y ago
  As I understand it, an aarch64 Mac can virtualize aarch64 Linux and does not have to emulate it. Here's an Apple sample project: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/virtualization/running_gui_linux_in_a_virtual_machine_on_a_mac https://developer.apple.com/documentation/virtualization/run...
  - Aaron2222 3y ago
    There's both Apple's Hypervisor framework (a lower-level framework for hypervisors to use to avoid needing a kernel extension), and Apple's Virtualization framework (which is a higher-level framework that lets you run Linux and macOS VMs). QEMU supports virtualization on macOS with the HVF accelerator, which uses the Hypervisor framework. UTM uses QEMU, supporting virtualisation through QEMU with HVF (as well as emulation of other architectures with QEMU). UTM also has support for using the Virtualization framework. But either way, with an ARM64 image, you'll be getting virtualization (unless you disable HVF when using QEMU).

58028641 3y ago

I think it would be faster to use an ARM64 VM and use Rosetta, FEX-Emu, or Box64 for x86 programs inside the VM.

fabiensanglard 3y ago

Are you using emulation or virtualization? You mention x86 versions but the M1 uses arm64. That may be why it is slow.

warvariuc 3y ago

I use Ubuntu in UTM, but I installed the ARM64 server version, then the desktop packages.

j-a-a-p 3y ago
Interesting, this results in a fully functional desktop version? I have a M2 and the hardware is great, but the OS that came with it not so. If I could replace the OS with Ubuntu that would be great. (Windows would also be great, but I have no experience in installing that)
- bombcar 3y ago
  Yes. You wouldn’t replace the OS but you can make UTM full screen and hardly notice it’s not the main os There are attempts to run Linux on the Mac natively but they have limitations. You can also get utilities that abuse Mac OS to make it imitate windows or Linux if you want.
  - SamuelAdams 3y ago
    I almost always use my MacBook Pro in clamshell mode attached to a thunderbolt dock for external displays. Right now Ashai Linux does not support thunderbolt, however it is a work in progress. Does UTM work well with external displays? Preferably in full screen?
- warvariuc 3y ago
  > Interesting, this results in a fully functional desktop version? It's very snappy. I run Firefox to work with my Internet banking site in an isolated environment. I installed KDE -- I am very satisfied.

ace2358 3y ago

The article mentions that they are using virtualisation (arm Linux and Windows on Arm MacOS and M1) not emulation (Ubuntu and Debian x86 by emulation on arm on MacOS and m1). Emulation is slow sadly. Virtualisation is approaching native speed. “Both Ubuntu and Windows run at native speed since they are virtualized instead of emulated.”

supriyo-biswas 3y ago

I've had some great results using Orbstack's x86 Linux VMs, though primarily for Linux development.

vbezhenar 3y ago

You can't run x86 Linux quickly on macOS. What you can do is to run ARM Linux quickly on macOS and run x86 programs inside of that Linux with Rosetta quickly.

WanderPanda 3y ago
Wait you can use Rosetta inside a Linux VM?
- Tepix 3y ago
  Indeed: https://docs.getutm.app/advanced/rosetta/ https://docs.getutm.app/advanced/rosetta/
- easeout 3y ago
  Yes, see Apple's documentation: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/virtualization/running_intel_binaries_in_linux_vms_with_rosetta https://developer.apple.com/documentation/virtualization/run...
rlupi 3y ago
Am I missing something? Is this quicker just because you are emulating only the program and not the OS?
- bombcar 3y ago
  Yes. If you run x86 Linux in a VM on an M1 you are emulating/translating every single instruction; with a native OS you are only translating the application.
- vbezhenar 3y ago
  It is quicker because Rosetta is a proprietary Apple technology which apparently works superb, but only supports userspace code. Emulating x86 with qemu does not work as fast, unfortunately. I'm not qualified enough to judge whether it's qemu shortcoming or it's just not possible to emulate entire VM as efficiently, but the practical result for today is that you want to use Rosetta.

j-a-a-p 3y ago

Yes, before installing read that UTM uses Qemu and did not pursue it any further. AFAIK only Mac runs on apple silicon, everything else is emulated.

easeout 3y ago
As I understand it, an aarch64 Mac can virtualize aarch64 Linux and does not have to emulate it. Here's an Apple sample project: https://developer.apple.com/documentation/virtualization/running_gui_linux_in_a_virtual_machine_on_a_mac https://developer.apple.com/documentation/virtualization/run...
- Aaron2222 3y ago
  There's both Apple's Hypervisor framework (a lower-level framework for hypervisors to use to avoid needing a kernel extension), and Apple's Virtualization framework (which is a higher-level framework that lets you run Linux and macOS VMs). QEMU supports virtualization on macOS with the HVF accelerator, which uses the Hypervisor framework. UTM uses QEMU, supporting virtualisation through QEMU with HVF (as well as emulation of other architectures with QEMU). UTM also has support for using the Virtualization framework. But either way, with an ARM64 image, you'll be getting virtualization (unless you disable HVF when using QEMU).