12 ms·

To abuse the metaphor - lisp and lispers are completely tone deaf. There's an enormous number of people writing code that don't care one wit about "elegance" or

To abuse the metaphor - lisp and lispers are completely tone deaf. There's an enormous number of people writing code that don't care one wit about "elegance" or "power" or "beauty" or whatever weird intangibles lisp has pretensions to. These people (such heretics) in fact don't care about software unto itself at all. They only care about using software to accomplish some goal, finish some task, solve some real (earthly) problem. > The real issue is that many people don't want to become virtuoso, but just want to learn as little from their tools to make rent. I would love to be a virtuoso pianist or painter or singer. I can't fathom the desire to be a virtuoso programmer - it would be like being a virtuoso widget assembler. I mean sure our bosses wishes all of us were virtuoso widget assemblers. But me by myself? Nah. And also don't give me that protestant work ethic shpiel about taking pride in your work - I have plenty of other things I can be proud of instead. > That's fine, but let's not blame the tool, then. A tool that no one uses isn't some lonely pitiable misunderstood emo child - it's just useless. It's dead simple: if lisp were the key to building fantastically successful software we would all swallow our pride and use the stupid parens language. I don't know how such a clear and obvious argument never gets through to people in language communities. If you have to fight, for decades, to convince people that your tool is superior and still no one is using it, you should reflect deeply on whether you're wrong.

gleenn 3y ago
I hardly think being a virtuoso programmer is something to shun. Not everyone has to do it but it's not a bad thing. Also, as the speed of processors has basically stopped but we get more and more cores, things like Clojure's atoms, STM, and core.async make it really easy to do parallel computations without the utter insanity that using mutexes or Futures or whatever leads to. Clojure definitely makes it way easier to write clearly correct multi-threaded code in very few lines of code. You would be shocked what you can get out of the box. So there is a lisp that targets exactly what you want: something for laymen to use to effectively get the job done correctly and way easier than the competition. I've seen FAANG engineers screw up simple locks etc. If Clojure can hand you tools to get that done then why wouldn't you be trying it (despite your aversion to parens).
sph 3y ago
> I can't fathom the desire to be a virtuoso programmer - it would be like being a virtuoso widget assembler. Only if all the programming you do is assembling widgets, which given your tone might be the case. For some it is a form of art, just like a paintbrush or a musical instrument. Imagine if we were in a bizarro world where you go to violin university not because you like it, but because it's a good career that pays well; after 20 years doing 40 h/wk playing the violin for a nameless Big Orchestra playing day in day out what is frankly trite crap for pointy haired composers, you'd find it very hard to imagine a world where people play the violin for fun. I sense a LOT of hostility on your part against me defending what is just, simply a tool, because Big Orchestra has killed your creativity and imagination. Again, it is not the tool's fault. Nor am I fighting for the world to adopt this tool as you claim. It's not a tool that meshes well with pointy haired bosses, and sadly they rule the world. In any case I'm not a "lisper", which seems to be a convenient category to put people in so they can be berated by your enormous frustration. I doubt all this rage comes because of deep seated trauma with S-expressions themselves. Glancing at your recent comment history, it sounds like you might need a holiday, Internet stranger.
- mathisfun123 3y ago
  > Only if all the programming you do is assembling widgets, which given your tone might be the case Oh hello there my old friend no true Scotsman. I'm a compilers researcher so gee hmm I wonder if maybe possibly I'm not just simply aggrieved. > For some it is a form of art, just like a paintbrush or a musical instrument. There's no such thing. Even me, a literal researcher, ultimately answers to the capital motive (the university's). You're not an artist. We are not artists in so far as we're paid for a service. >Imagine if we were in a bizarro world where you go to violin university not because you like it, but because it's a good career that pays well; after 20 years doing 40 h/wk playing the violin for a nameless Big Orchestra playing day in day out what is frankly trite crap for pointy haired composers, you'd find it very hard to imagine a world where people play the violin for fun. This isn't bizarro world or bizarre. This is the world. I'm very good at compilers research but I did not pick it for my PhD because I enjoyed it (as the username suggests, I did math in undergrad) but because it pays the best. I trade time for money just like you, just like everyone else. > I sense a LOT of hostility on your part against me defending what is just, simply a tool, because Big Orchestra has killed your creativity and imagination. Again, it is not the tool's fault. Whenever someone says this I'm like I didn't come to you attacking lisp but you did come here and start a debate about whether people just want to pay rent. So I'm hostile supposedly for responding to your condescension but you're not hostile for... being condescending? The math isn't mathing as they say. >It's not a tool that meshes well with pointy haired bosses, and sadly they rule the world. You're aluding to the deep cultural depth and brilliance of a ... comic strip. And unironically. You really think this is a valuable contribution to any conversation? > I doubt all this rage comes because of deep seated trauma with S-expressions themselves. I'll say it again: there's no rage or trauma, there's only you and your condescending remarks about paying rent and lack of virtue or virtuosity or whatever. If you hadn't said that people "just want to pay rent" I wouldn't have bothered to say anything at all.
erik_seaberg 3y ago
> people writing code that don't care one wit about "elegance" or "power" or "beauty" or whatever Lisp can’t force you to take full advantage of what it’s good at, and if you prefer not to, it’s probably a waste of time. As the saying goes, you can write Fortran in any language.

gleenn 3y ago

I hardly think being a virtuoso programmer is something to shun. Not everyone has to do it but it's not a bad thing. Also, as the speed of processors has basically stopped but we get more and more cores, things like Clojure's atoms, STM, and core.async make it really easy to do parallel computations without the utter insanity that using mutexes or Futures or whatever leads to. Clojure definitely makes it way easier to write clearly correct multi-threaded code in very few lines of code. You would be shocked what you can get out of the box. So there is a lisp that targets exactly what you want: something for laymen to use to effectively get the job done correctly and way easier than the competition. I've seen FAANG engineers screw up simple locks etc. If Clojure can hand you tools to get that done then why wouldn't you be trying it (despite your aversion to parens).

sph 3y ago

> I can't fathom the desire to be a virtuoso programmer - it would be like being a virtuoso widget assembler. Only if all the programming you do is assembling widgets, which given your tone might be the case. For some it is a form of art, just like a paintbrush or a musical instrument. Imagine if we were in a bizarro world where you go to violin university not because you like it, but because it's a good career that pays well; after 20 years doing 40 h/wk playing the violin for a nameless Big Orchestra playing day in day out what is frankly trite crap for pointy haired composers, you'd find it very hard to imagine a world where people play the violin for fun. I sense a LOT of hostility on your part against me defending what is just, simply a tool, because Big Orchestra has killed your creativity and imagination. Again, it is not the tool's fault. Nor am I fighting for the world to adopt this tool as you claim. It's not a tool that meshes well with pointy haired bosses, and sadly they rule the world. In any case I'm not a "lisper", which seems to be a convenient category to put people in so they can be berated by your enormous frustration. I doubt all this rage comes because of deep seated trauma with S-expressions themselves. Glancing at your recent comment history, it sounds like you might need a holiday, Internet stranger.

mathisfun123 3y ago
> Only if all the programming you do is assembling widgets, which given your tone might be the case Oh hello there my old friend no true Scotsman. I'm a compilers researcher so gee hmm I wonder if maybe possibly I'm not just simply aggrieved. > For some it is a form of art, just like a paintbrush or a musical instrument. There's no such thing. Even me, a literal researcher, ultimately answers to the capital motive (the university's). You're not an artist. We are not artists in so far as we're paid for a service. >Imagine if we were in a bizarro world where you go to violin university not because you like it, but because it's a good career that pays well; after 20 years doing 40 h/wk playing the violin for a nameless Big Orchestra playing day in day out what is frankly trite crap for pointy haired composers, you'd find it very hard to imagine a world where people play the violin for fun. This isn't bizarro world or bizarre. This is the world. I'm very good at compilers research but I did not pick it for my PhD because I enjoyed it (as the username suggests, I did math in undergrad) but because it pays the best. I trade time for money just like you, just like everyone else. > I sense a LOT of hostility on your part against me defending what is just, simply a tool, because Big Orchestra has killed your creativity and imagination. Again, it is not the tool's fault. Whenever someone says this I'm like I didn't come to you attacking lisp but you did come here and start a debate about whether people just want to pay rent. So I'm hostile supposedly for responding to your condescension but you're not hostile for... being condescending? The math isn't mathing as they say. >It's not a tool that meshes well with pointy haired bosses, and sadly they rule the world. You're aluding to the deep cultural depth and brilliance of a ... comic strip. And unironically. You really think this is a valuable contribution to any conversation? > I doubt all this rage comes because of deep seated trauma with S-expressions themselves. I'll say it again: there's no rage or trauma, there's only you and your condescending remarks about paying rent and lack of virtue or virtuosity or whatever. If you hadn't said that people "just want to pay rent" I wouldn't have bothered to say anything at all.

erik_seaberg 3y ago

> people writing code that don't care one wit about "elegance" or "power" or "beauty" or whatever Lisp can’t force you to take full advantage of what it’s good at, and if you prefer not to, it’s probably a waste of time. As the saying goes, you can write Fortran in any language.