3 ms·

Is the right of a handful of people to run a web server on their phone more important than the right of millions of "unsophisticated" users to not be scammed /

Is the right of a handful of people to run a web server on their phone more important than the right of millions of "unsophisticated" users to not be scammed / abused by malware? Since it's inception smart phones have been a consumer platform, used for consuming content. The platform for tinkerers already exists. It's called a PC with Linux installed. Every platform does not need to cater to your needs.

froggit 3y ago
PC is overkill for this case. A raspberry pi would get the job done while saving energy and equipment costs.
- _Algernon_ 3y ago
  A raspberry pi certainly fits the definition of a "Personal Computer".
  - hunter2_ 3y ago
    The whole "Mac versus PC" thing somewhat solidified the notion that PC refers to x86. Raspberry Pi uses ARM.
    - cdogl 3y ago
      I have an X86 MacBook Pro.
      - hunter2_ 3y ago
        "PC refers to a non-Apple x86 machine" then :)
    - seabass-labrax 3y ago
      I like to think of a 'PC' being any machine that is derived from the IBM 5150, which was the original 'Personal Computer' (although far from the first microcomputer). However, with UEFI support on many ARM SoCs, maybe the two lineages are now marrying into each other!
    - gsich 3y ago
      Mac is a PC.
      - worthless-trash 3y ago
        Exactly, if its not personal, what is it ?
Moldoteck 3y ago
right of millions of "unsophisticated" users to not be scammed / abused by malware - but who even said this will lead to millions being scammed? Does (just) the ability to create a server on pc/mac imply are less secure compared to phones?(the question is just for this ability, not other protection mechanisms). Also, why just not treat it like option to sideload apps in android? Imo that option is orders of magnitude 'more dangerous' compared to creating a server but still that option can be used without the root and without breaking the warranty.
soulofmischief 3y ago
> Is the right of a handful of people to run a web server on their phone more important than the right of millions of "unsophisticated" users to not be scammed / abused by malware? Are you familiar with the false dilemma? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma > The platform for tinkerers already exists. It's called a PC with Linux installed I would love for you to make the case that a modern touch screen phone is not a Personal Computer. And you fail to address the very real scenario in which companies are conspiring to provide fully locked-down hardware and software ecosystems.
- _Algernon_ 3y ago
  >I would love for you to make the case that a modern touch screen phone is not a Personal Computer. I'm always up for a challenge, so here you go. I'd argue that a PC is a general purpose personal computer. I wouldn't count a game console such as Xbox, PS or Switch as a PC because it is vendor controlled and locked down. I'd also not consider a car with an entertainment system a general purpose computing device. Similarly phones are bought with the knowledge that they are more similar to game consoles than general purpose computers. They are bought with the knowledge that they are locked down by the vendor and that your use of the device is going to be limited. The right to install custom software that does whatever you want has never been part of the contract. I do support the people's right to attempt to hack these devices to do whatever they want, but I do think expecting vendor support for their wacky antics is a step too far.
  - soulofmischief 3y ago
    > I wouldn't count a game console such as Xbox, PS or Switch as a PC because it is vendor controlled and locked down The Xbox was built primarily from standard components used in personal computers. The PlayStation 2 and 3 ran Linux as alternative operating systems, officially supported by Sony. The Nintendo Wii series is heralded as some of the most hackable and therefore versatile consoles in history, not for Nintendo's lack of trying. > Similarly phones are bought with the knowledge that they are more similar to game consoles than general purpose computers My phone in my pocket has more capability than my old laptops. Touchscreen interaction and the ability to make calls over a cell network do not suddenly make this thing not a personal computer. The hardware is completely capable of supporting this. > They are bought with the knowledge that they are locked down by the vendor and that your use of the device is going to be limited. This is just circular reasoning. The entire point is that this "knowledge" is simply consumer conditioning, and people are being taken advantage of by being fed this bullshit narrative. > The right to install custom software that does whatever you want has never been part of the contract. My friend, there is no contract. That is the point. I buy the hardware, and then I have the right to do whatever the fuck I want with it. Full stop. Anything less restricts my right to modify my personal items as I see fit. > I do think expecting vendor support for their wacky antics is a step too far. What? My phone runs a heavily-modified Linux and can do literally anything I need regarding personal computing, including hook up to external monitors and make use of peripheral devices like a mouse and keyboard. It is objectively a full-blown computer, regardless of if you can't understand that. The premise of this thread is simply that, despite all of this, ports are arbitrarily locked down. This requires extra vendor intervention to implement, so your argument makes no sense. There is nothing wacky about using my personal computing device for.... personal computing. It's either disingenuous or ignorant to suggest this is not something which should be considered.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]

froggit 3y ago

PC is overkill for this case. A raspberry pi would get the job done while saving energy and equipment costs.

_Algernon_ 3y ago
A raspberry pi certainly fits the definition of a "Personal Computer".
- hunter2_ 3y ago
  The whole "Mac versus PC" thing somewhat solidified the notion that PC refers to x86. Raspberry Pi uses ARM.
  - cdogl 3y ago
    I have an X86 MacBook Pro.
    - hunter2_ 3y ago
      "PC refers to a non-Apple x86 machine" then :)
  - seabass-labrax 3y ago
    I like to think of a 'PC' being any machine that is derived from the IBM 5150, which was the original 'Personal Computer' (although far from the first microcomputer). However, with UEFI support on many ARM SoCs, maybe the two lineages are now marrying into each other!
  - gsich 3y ago
    Mac is a PC.
    - worthless-trash 3y ago
      Exactly, if its not personal, what is it ?

Moldoteck 3y ago

right of millions of "unsophisticated" users to not be scammed / abused by malware - but who even said this will lead to millions being scammed? Does (just) the ability to create a server on pc/mac imply are less secure compared to phones?(the question is just for this ability, not other protection mechanisms). Also, why just not treat it like option to sideload apps in android? Imo that option is orders of magnitude 'more dangerous' compared to creating a server but still that option can be used without the root and without breaking the warranty.

soulofmischief 3y ago

> Is the right of a handful of people to run a web server on their phone more important than the right of millions of "unsophisticated" users to not be scammed / abused by malware? Are you familiar with the false dilemma? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/False_dilemma > The platform for tinkerers already exists. It's called a PC with Linux installed I would love for you to make the case that a modern touch screen phone is not a Personal Computer. And you fail to address the very real scenario in which companies are conspiring to provide fully locked-down hardware and software ecosystems.

_Algernon_ 3y ago
>I would love for you to make the case that a modern touch screen phone is not a Personal Computer. I'm always up for a challenge, so here you go. I'd argue that a PC is a general purpose personal computer. I wouldn't count a game console such as Xbox, PS or Switch as a PC because it is vendor controlled and locked down. I'd also not consider a car with an entertainment system a general purpose computing device. Similarly phones are bought with the knowledge that they are more similar to game consoles than general purpose computers. They are bought with the knowledge that they are locked down by the vendor and that your use of the device is going to be limited. The right to install custom software that does whatever you want has never been part of the contract. I do support the people's right to attempt to hack these devices to do whatever they want, but I do think expecting vendor support for their wacky antics is a step too far.
- soulofmischief 3y ago
  > I wouldn't count a game console such as Xbox, PS or Switch as a PC because it is vendor controlled and locked down The Xbox was built primarily from standard components used in personal computers. The PlayStation 2 and 3 ran Linux as alternative operating systems, officially supported by Sony. The Nintendo Wii series is heralded as some of the most hackable and therefore versatile consoles in history, not for Nintendo's lack of trying. > Similarly phones are bought with the knowledge that they are more similar to game consoles than general purpose computers My phone in my pocket has more capability than my old laptops. Touchscreen interaction and the ability to make calls over a cell network do not suddenly make this thing not a personal computer. The hardware is completely capable of supporting this. > They are bought with the knowledge that they are locked down by the vendor and that your use of the device is going to be limited. This is just circular reasoning. The entire point is that this "knowledge" is simply consumer conditioning, and people are being taken advantage of by being fed this bullshit narrative. > The right to install custom software that does whatever you want has never been part of the contract. My friend, there is no contract. That is the point. I buy the hardware, and then I have the right to do whatever the fuck I want with it. Full stop. Anything less restricts my right to modify my personal items as I see fit. > I do think expecting vendor support for their wacky antics is a step too far. What? My phone runs a heavily-modified Linux and can do literally anything I need regarding personal computing, including hook up to external monitors and make use of peripheral devices like a mouse and keyboard. It is objectively a full-blown computer, regardless of if you can't understand that. The premise of this thread is simply that, despite all of this, ports are arbitrarily locked down. This requires extra vendor intervention to implement, so your argument makes no sense. There is nothing wacky about using my personal computing device for.... personal computing. It's either disingenuous or ignorant to suggest this is not something which should be considered.

deleted 3y ago

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