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I think it really depends on what your definition of "productive" is. Let me try and quantify it. I looked through my apps that I installed from F-Droid, then

by doix 3y ago

I think it really depends on what your definition of "productive" is. Let me try and quantify it. I looked through my apps that I installed from F-Droid, then looked at their GitHub issues and picked one [0]. I bet I could implement that in less than a week with 0 Android development experience. > Every Android version is basically a reboot in many parts of the framework, the device fragmentation is hardly any better than J2ME days, several features are only documented via samples or Google IO talks, Gradle plugins require rewrites between upgrades, and each Android Studio release is a box of surprises what quirks it has. Does any of that really matter if you're hiring someone into an existing org? Doesn't Android have amazing backwards compatibility? I'm sure I have some dice app from 2012 that still runs. The company is probably targeting some version of Android and isn't changing to the latest one every time a new version is released. [0] https://github.com/tasks/tasks/issues/2435 https://github.com/tasks/tasks/issues/2435

scarface_74 3y ago
Are you trying to find a job as a journeyman developer (nothing wrong with that) or are you trying to lead a team or be a senior where you are expected to be productive from day one and maybe mentor developers and be more strategic? Would you hire me someone who not only doesn’t know anything about Android development but doesn’t even follow the ecosystem and the current trends?
- doix 3y ago
  If I was looking for a job, I'd say that I have no professional Android experience but I'm confident that I could hit the ground running at a senior level and mentor juniors for Android. I mean, in this hypothetical scenario, I've decided that I want a job as an Android developer. So I would take my own time to learn Android whilst interviewing. By the time I got a job, I'm confident I'd hit the ground running. I wouldn't try to apply for a job to lead an Android team without at least working in one first. I'm sure some people do, but I'm not that confident ;). > Would you hire me someone who not only doesn’t know anything about Android development but doesn’t even follow the ecosystem and the current trends? I wouldn't hire you because you don't sound like you think you could do it. If I was interviewing someone and they said something like: "I have no experience with Android, but I know Kotlin and I'm confident I could pick it up. I did a similar thing with x,y,z" then sure.
  - scarface_74 3y ago
    > If I was looking for a job, I'd say that I have no professional Android experience but I'm confident that I could hit the ground running at a senior level and mentor juniors for Android I can say I’m a little teapot. But without demonstrated experience, why would you hire me over one of the million developers with experience and have at least shipped an app? > If I was interviewing someone and they said something like: "I have no experience with Android, but I know Kotlin and I'm confident I could pick it up. I did a similar thing with x,y,z" then sure. Yes because “positive thoughts” without experience means you can be effective
pjmlp 3y ago
Already with that response you have proved not to understand the Android ecosystem. No it doesn't have an amazing backwards compatibility, specially depending on what is cool in one Google IO, and already legacy in the new one, without replacement, like e.g. Tango, Sceneform, Fragments. There are policy rules how old an Android app is allowed to be in Play Store.
- saurik 3y ago
  I don't care what platform you are targeting: unless the entire purpose of your product is to take advantage of the feature (which is sometimes fair), you never ever ever EVER integrate whatever is "cool" from the latest keynote. Regardless, while Android requires you to compile new apps with the latest toolchains to release, and you might have to update some stuff in your manifest, they do not force you to use new APIs, they do not require you to stop supporting old versions of Android, and I've seldom run into a backwards compatibility issue that wasn't some corner case involving the weird intents we have to use (as our app relies on being a VPN).
  - pjmlp 3y ago
    Time to acquaint yourself with Play Store policies and what should be the minimum API version for uploading new app versions, which do force to use new APIs, that is the whole point behind it. Here have a go at it, https://support.google.com/googleplay/android-developer/answer/11926878?hl=en https://support.google.com/googleplay/android-developer/answ... Besides the whole Android example, was just that, I can give several examples of technology stacks where having a passable knowledgeable of a programming language, without the associated frameworks that are being used in the company, makes the candidates a no hire, unless they really excel themselves at the interview, assuming HR even cares to call them in.
    - saurik 3y ago
      sigh, look again: you have mixed up "target" with "min" :/. This is a critical distinction that you can't just gloss over: you simply are NOT forced to use new APIs just because you bumped the target... at build time it might activate the ability to choose to use some new APIs if you want to, but the biggest effect it has is at runtime to affect the various subtle--and extremely limited--backwards compatibility behaviors I mentioned (similar to how iOS uses the version of UIKit you linked your app against) which tend to mostly limit specific scenarios where security issues or bugs were found in older designs. FWIW, I am seriously the build engineer for an Android app distributed in the Play Store (and have maintained apps for Android since the platform launched and it was still called the Android Market), and I'm telling you: you are not just wrong, you are being loudly wrong... not just about this (where the wrongness frankly feels egregious at this point), but your entire point: I have taught classes at the university level on how to rapidly pick up programming environments, and the lead UI developer I hired for our company had almost no experience in the toolkit we are using before we hired him and he's doing fine with it.

by doix 3y ago

scarface_74 3y ago

Are you trying to find a job as a journeyman developer (nothing wrong with that) or are you trying to lead a team or be a senior where you are expected to be productive from day one and maybe mentor developers and be more strategic? Would you hire me someone who not only doesn’t know anything about Android development but doesn’t even follow the ecosystem and the current trends?

doix 3y ago
If I was looking for a job, I'd say that I have no professional Android experience but I'm confident that I could hit the ground running at a senior level and mentor juniors for Android. I mean, in this hypothetical scenario, I've decided that I want a job as an Android developer. So I would take my own time to learn Android whilst interviewing. By the time I got a job, I'm confident I'd hit the ground running. I wouldn't try to apply for a job to lead an Android team without at least working in one first. I'm sure some people do, but I'm not that confident ;). > Would you hire me someone who not only doesn’t know anything about Android development but doesn’t even follow the ecosystem and the current trends? I wouldn't hire you because you don't sound like you think you could do it. If I was interviewing someone and they said something like: "I have no experience with Android, but I know Kotlin and I'm confident I could pick it up. I did a similar thing with x,y,z" then sure.
- scarface_74 3y ago
  > If I was looking for a job, I'd say that I have no professional Android experience but I'm confident that I could hit the ground running at a senior level and mentor juniors for Android I can say I’m a little teapot. But without demonstrated experience, why would you hire me over one of the million developers with experience and have at least shipped an app? > If I was interviewing someone and they said something like: "I have no experience with Android, but I know Kotlin and I'm confident I could pick it up. I did a similar thing with x,y,z" then sure. Yes because “positive thoughts” without experience means you can be effective

pjmlp 3y ago

Already with that response you have proved not to understand the Android ecosystem. No it doesn't have an amazing backwards compatibility, specially depending on what is cool in one Google IO, and already legacy in the new one, without replacement, like e.g. Tango, Sceneform, Fragments. There are policy rules how old an Android app is allowed to be in Play Store.

saurik 3y ago
I don't care what platform you are targeting: unless the entire purpose of your product is to take advantage of the feature (which is sometimes fair), you never ever ever EVER integrate whatever is "cool" from the latest keynote. Regardless, while Android requires you to compile new apps with the latest toolchains to release, and you might have to update some stuff in your manifest, they do not force you to use new APIs, they do not require you to stop supporting old versions of Android, and I've seldom run into a backwards compatibility issue that wasn't some corner case involving the weird intents we have to use (as our app relies on being a VPN).
- pjmlp 3y ago
  Time to acquaint yourself with Play Store policies and what should be the minimum API version for uploading new app versions, which do force to use new APIs, that is the whole point behind it. Here have a go at it, https://support.google.com/googleplay/android-developer/answer/11926878?hl=en https://support.google.com/googleplay/android-developer/answ... Besides the whole Android example, was just that, I can give several examples of technology stacks where having a passable knowledgeable of a programming language, without the associated frameworks that are being used in the company, makes the candidates a no hire, unless they really excel themselves at the interview, assuming HR even cares to call them in.
  - saurik 3y ago
    sigh, look again: you have mixed up "target" with "min" :/. This is a critical distinction that you can't just gloss over: you simply are NOT forced to use new APIs just because you bumped the target... at build time it might activate the ability to choose to use some new APIs if you want to, but the biggest effect it has is at runtime to affect the various subtle--and extremely limited--backwards compatibility behaviors I mentioned (similar to how iOS uses the version of UIKit you linked your app against) which tend to mostly limit specific scenarios where security issues or bugs were found in older designs. FWIW, I am seriously the build engineer for an Android app distributed in the Play Store (and have maintained apps for Android since the platform launched and it was still called the Android Market), and I'm telling you: you are not just wrong, you are being loudly wrong... not just about this (where the wrongness frankly feels egregious at this point), but your entire point: I have taught classes at the university level on how to rapidly pick up programming environments, and the lead UI developer I hired for our company had almost no experience in the toolkit we are using before we hired him and he's doing fine with it.