5 ms·

When Microsoft does not have market-share lead, they are pro-customer in that market - hardware in this case. If Microsoft has the leading market-share and doe

by prirun 3y ago

When Microsoft does not have market-share lead, they are pro-customer in that market - hardware in this case. If Microsoft has the leading market-share and doesn't feel threatened, they are anti-customer, ie, Windows. This usually holds for any large corporation. "Elsewhere, Microsoft has been doing a better job ensuring that consumers have access to both service manuals and essential parts needed to independently repair the company’s hardware, ranging from its Surface tablets and laptops to Xbox game controllers." Microsoft's Surface tablets and laptops (I didn't even know they sold laptops!) are a blip compared to Apple. Notably absent are Xbox consoles; they don't have a market-share lead in consoles, although though with their recent acquisition, they might in a few years. So yeah, no console right-to-repair nonsense. Corporations are just like people: they act in their own interest, with the big difference that most people are moral and will consider how their actions might adversely affect others while corporations don't give a shit.

bobboies 3y ago
Somewhere along the line they changed the Xbox UI to sell more widgets. I hate that—let me see all my apps first and foremost, not apps that I don’t want. If I’m in a shopping mood I’ll open the store… and they brought that same pattern to Win11. Stop selling us shit we don’t want please MSFT. Customer first vs corporation first. The truth is, if they don’t see lots of returns on software they force it down customers throat. If that doesn’t generate enough revenue they just kill it on the spot. Microsoft had some great products but it’s hard to want to buy anything from them now because it’ll be EOL in one or two years… feel bad for folks who bought surface duos, to name a more recent one.
Eddy_Viscosity2 3y ago
> This usually holds for any large corporation. This is the whole concept of market competition being a good thing for customers. Its also the thing that is hugely lacking in most major industry sectors because of decades of mergers and laws making it harder for new entries. As you've pointed out, Microsoft will screw over customers the nanosecond it sees it can get away with it.
nolok 3y ago
> Notably absent are Xbox consoles; they don't have a market-share lead in consoles, although though with their recent acquisition, they might in a few years. It's important to understand that Xbox is almost a non entity in the rest of the world, it's irrelevant in Japan and distant third in Europe (beside UK where it's first/equal with playstation). Xbox 360 carved a bit of a share in the rest of europe but then Xbox One destroyed that in one fell swoop and it never recovered since.
- dijit 3y ago
  As a person who has worked in the AAA video games industry for nearly a decade now: this is the truth; though actually a bit more dire than you make it. From what I recall XB1 had a really mild advantage in north America which looked striking because it was a mere 50% of PS4 in every other market. With PS5/XBX the gap is even wider in favour of the playstation. Notably PC players are around the same number as XB1 players, though are slightly overrepresented in Europe compared to other markets.
  - qwytw 3y ago
    MS is(has?) merged Xbox with PC PC gaming. Counting Xbox separately might not make much sense anymore when they are no different to locked down budget gaming PCs which can only access the MS store.
    - mcpackieh 3y ago
      They really haven't been merged in a meaningful sense; the PC gaming market is predominantly focused around other stores than the MS store, particularly Steam, and Xbox can't/won't have anything to do with that.
      - qwytw 3y ago
        True, I guess my point was that Xbox seems more like a subset of the PC market rather than a separate platform like PS5.
MostlyStable 3y ago
This is very obviously not always true. For example, the Microsoft Surface line has always been a tiny blip in it's market and yet iFixit rated 5 years of products the lowest score possible on their repairbility scale[0]. And it is not unusual at all for non-leading companies to have pretty anti-competitive practices. This whole comment feels like "yeah, well don't give them credit for it because they don't really mean it". I don't give a shit if they mean it. If they are doing pro-consumer things I'm going to reward them and if they stop doing it, I'm going to stop rewarding them. That's how you send a signal and get broadly better practices. Making up complicated theories for why you still shouldn't be happy about good things is both silly and doesn't help anything get better. [0]https://www.ifixit.com/tablet-repairability?sort=score https://www.ifixit.com/tablet-repairability?sort=score
- supazek 3y ago
  How are you rewarding them? By upvoting HN posts?
  - dewert 3y ago
    That's an uncharitable interpretation. They likely mean they will buy Microsoft hardware until Microsoft becomes customer-unfriendly in this space. Whether that's a much bigger signal than an upvote might be debatable, though.
- HeWhoLurksLate 3y ago
  The surface laptops were also originally pushing the limits of slimness to push manufacturers to make pretty windows laptops, too, right?
  - 666satanhimself 3y ago
    [dead]
- zlg_codes 3y ago
  Would you call it complicated to simply not be interested in software that reverts settings and babysits you, thwarting your control of the machine? Windows 10 and 11 do that and have telemetry baked in. I wouldn't consider valuing one's security or privacy as a complicated theory. Maybe you're more easily swayed but it takes more than a token "hey guiz we make repairable stuff" from the very firm that has tried to kill alternatives since its inception, to change my mind. It turns out that reputation matters for a business and I still remember the 90s.
appplication 3y ago
This is a good observation and holds more broadly, in that corporate values are not aligned with what is right, but with a market niche that can be captured by adopting these vales. Lyft being the “do good” company vs Uber. Meta open sourcing their models vs OpenAI. Apple being privacy centric vs Google.
- pessimizer 3y ago
  Remember also that Lyft's original positioning was the "cool bro" company that thought that "mustache rides" and fist bumps were the funniest thing ever. That was when Uber was the "rich bro" company. When Uber became the bad guy, Lyft became the good guy.
rollcat 3y ago
Oh, same thing about the app stores. When Epic vs Apple popped up, MS was very vocal about what constitutes a fair cut for the store operator - as long as it was desktop or mobile. Games however, according to MS, are obviously very different - their XBox store actually making them decent money is totally unrelated. I guess good for the consumer, as long as MS is losing a bit.
ClumsyPilot 3y ago
> When X does not have market-share lead, they are pro-customer.. If X has the leading market-share and doesn't feel threatened, they are anti-customer Ye, we've known for over 110 years that giant Monopoly-capitalism doesn't work. But apparently neither Congress nor denizens of this forum accept that simple truth, and are happy to approve corporate mergers that reduce competition.
- CatWChainsaw 3y ago
  They'll learn when it hurts them and not the millions/billions of others it hurts first. Then when the pressure's off they undergo selective amnesia.
giancarlostoro 3y ago
I wish they would lose the OS market and stop adding all the BS that has been there since roughly Windows 8 through to 11. I want accounts that arent linked to my hotmail so fully offline accounts should be the default, zero ads to buy office. Zero preinstalled garbage apps. Let me buy a Windows Pro for Devs license that comes super stripped down, even Cortana is fully removed. I want no distractions from my work with preinstalled garbage. Microsoft I will pay way more than whatever Pro goes for, and more than your ads give you back, since I eventually rip it all out of my OS. Also all metrics off by default.
- sgjohnson 3y ago
  > I want accounts that arent linked to my hotmail so fully offline accounts should be the default, zero ads to buy office. Zero preinstalled garbage apps. Let me buy a Windows Pro for Devs license that comes super stripped down, even Cortana is fully removed. I want no distractions from my work with preinstalled garbage. A version of Windows like that exists, but you can’t buy it. It’s called Windows 10 Enterprise LTSC 2021 (21H2). Howver, there’s a free evaluation version available from MS. If you’re really that interested in it, I’m sure you’ll figure out how to promote that “evaluation” version to “retail” and then kms activate it. I’m daily driving it. And loving it.
- deadlyllama 3y ago
  Build yourself a Windows install USB stick with Rufus using its automatic ISO download system. When you write the image it has an option to make the installer create a local account and turn all the stupid prompts off.
NicoJuicy 3y ago
> Microsoft's Surface tablets and laptops rely on Windows. Seems a bit contrary to your opinion that one product can be both PRO and anti-consumer, no?
m463 3y ago
Honestly, Microsoft should not be in the hardware business, it competes with their OEM customers that load windows. Personally, I think of microsoft hardware as a "proof of concept" or "reference design", sort of like how intel has nucs or nvidia has founder's edition cards.

by prirun 3y ago

bobboies 3y ago

Somewhere along the line they changed the Xbox UI to sell more widgets. I hate that—let me see all my apps first and foremost, not apps that I don’t want. If I’m in a shopping mood I’ll open the store… and they brought that same pattern to Win11. Stop selling us shit we don’t want please MSFT. Customer first vs corporation first. The truth is, if they don’t see lots of returns on software they force it down customers throat. If that doesn’t generate enough revenue they just kill it on the spot. Microsoft had some great products but it’s hard to want to buy anything from them now because it’ll be EOL in one or two years… feel bad for folks who bought surface duos, to name a more recent one.

Eddy_Viscosity2 3y ago

> This usually holds for any large corporation. This is the whole concept of market competition being a good thing for customers. Its also the thing that is hugely lacking in most major industry sectors because of decades of mergers and laws making it harder for new entries. As you've pointed out, Microsoft will screw over customers the nanosecond it sees it can get away with it.

nolok 3y ago

> Notably absent are Xbox consoles; they don't have a market-share lead in consoles, although though with their recent acquisition, they might in a few years. It's important to understand that Xbox is almost a non entity in the rest of the world, it's irrelevant in Japan and distant third in Europe (beside UK where it's first/equal with playstation). Xbox 360 carved a bit of a share in the rest of europe but then Xbox One destroyed that in one fell swoop and it never recovered since.

dijit 3y ago
As a person who has worked in the AAA video games industry for nearly a decade now: this is the truth; though actually a bit more dire than you make it. From what I recall XB1 had a really mild advantage in north America which looked striking because it was a mere 50% of PS4 in every other market. With PS5/XBX the gap is even wider in favour of the playstation. Notably PC players are around the same number as XB1 players, though are slightly overrepresented in Europe compared to other markets.
- qwytw 3y ago
  MS is(has?) merged Xbox with PC PC gaming. Counting Xbox separately might not make much sense anymore when they are no different to locked down budget gaming PCs which can only access the MS store.
  - mcpackieh 3y ago
    They really haven't been merged in a meaningful sense; the PC gaming market is predominantly focused around other stores than the MS store, particularly Steam, and Xbox can't/won't have anything to do with that.
    - qwytw 3y ago
      True, I guess my point was that Xbox seems more like a subset of the PC market rather than a separate platform like PS5.

MostlyStable 3y ago

This is very obviously not always true. For example, the Microsoft Surface line has always been a tiny blip in it's market and yet iFixit rated 5 years of products the lowest score possible on their repairbility scale[0]. And it is not unusual at all for non-leading companies to have pretty anti-competitive practices. This whole comment feels like "yeah, well don't give them credit for it because they don't really mean it". I don't give a shit if they mean it. If they are doing pro-consumer things I'm going to reward them and if they stop doing it, I'm going to stop rewarding them. That's how you send a signal and get broadly better practices. Making up complicated theories for why you still shouldn't be happy about good things is both silly and doesn't help anything get better. [0]https://www.ifixit.com/tablet-repairability?sort=score https://www.ifixit.com/tablet-repairability?sort=score

supazek 3y ago
How are you rewarding them? By upvoting HN posts?
- dewert 3y ago
  That's an uncharitable interpretation. They likely mean they will buy Microsoft hardware until Microsoft becomes customer-unfriendly in this space. Whether that's a much bigger signal than an upvote might be debatable, though.
HeWhoLurksLate 3y ago
The surface laptops were also originally pushing the limits of slimness to push manufacturers to make pretty windows laptops, too, right?
- 666satanhimself 3y ago
  [dead]
zlg_codes 3y ago
Would you call it complicated to simply not be interested in software that reverts settings and babysits you, thwarting your control of the machine? Windows 10 and 11 do that and have telemetry baked in. I wouldn't consider valuing one's security or privacy as a complicated theory. Maybe you're more easily swayed but it takes more than a token "hey guiz we make repairable stuff" from the very firm that has tried to kill alternatives since its inception, to change my mind. It turns out that reputation matters for a business and I still remember the 90s.

appplication 3y ago

This is a good observation and holds more broadly, in that corporate values are not aligned with what is right, but with a market niche that can be captured by adopting these vales. Lyft being the “do good” company vs Uber. Meta open sourcing their models vs OpenAI. Apple being privacy centric vs Google.

pessimizer 3y ago
Remember also that Lyft's original positioning was the "cool bro" company that thought that "mustache rides" and fist bumps were the funniest thing ever. That was when Uber was the "rich bro" company. When Uber became the bad guy, Lyft became the good guy.

rollcat 3y ago

Oh, same thing about the app stores. When Epic vs Apple popped up, MS was very vocal about what constitutes a fair cut for the store operator - as long as it was desktop or mobile. Games however, according to MS, are obviously very different - their XBox store actually making them decent money is totally unrelated. I guess good for the consumer, as long as MS is losing a bit.

ClumsyPilot 3y ago

> When X does not have market-share lead, they are pro-customer.. If X has the leading market-share and doesn't feel threatened, they are anti-customer Ye, we've known for over 110 years that giant Monopoly-capitalism doesn't work. But apparently neither Congress nor denizens of this forum accept that simple truth, and are happy to approve corporate mergers that reduce competition.

CatWChainsaw 3y ago
They'll learn when it hurts them and not the millions/billions of others it hurts first. Then when the pressure's off they undergo selective amnesia.

giancarlostoro 3y ago

I wish they would lose the OS market and stop adding all the BS that has been there since roughly Windows 8 through to 11. I want accounts that arent linked to my hotmail so fully offline accounts should be the default, zero ads to buy office. Zero preinstalled garbage apps. Let me buy a Windows Pro for Devs license that comes super stripped down, even Cortana is fully removed. I want no distractions from my work with preinstalled garbage. Microsoft I will pay way more than whatever Pro goes for, and more than your ads give you back, since I eventually rip it all out of my OS. Also all metrics off by default.

sgjohnson 3y ago
> I want accounts that arent linked to my hotmail so fully offline accounts should be the default, zero ads to buy office. Zero preinstalled garbage apps. Let me buy a Windows Pro for Devs license that comes super stripped down, even Cortana is fully removed. I want no distractions from my work with preinstalled garbage. A version of Windows like that exists, but you can’t buy it. It’s called Windows 10 Enterprise LTSC 2021 (21H2). Howver, there’s a free evaluation version available from MS. If you’re really that interested in it, I’m sure you’ll figure out how to promote that “evaluation” version to “retail” and then kms activate it. I’m daily driving it. And loving it.
deadlyllama 3y ago
Build yourself a Windows install USB stick with Rufus using its automatic ISO download system. When you write the image it has an option to make the installer create a local account and turn all the stupid prompts off.

NicoJuicy 3y ago

> Microsoft's Surface tablets and laptops rely on Windows. Seems a bit contrary to your opinion that one product can be both PRO and anti-consumer, no?

m463 3y ago

Honestly, Microsoft should not be in the hardware business, it competes with their OEM customers that load windows. Personally, I think of microsoft hardware as a "proof of concept" or "reference design", sort of like how intel has nucs or nvidia has founder's edition cards.