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Is there any hope of becoming proficient enough at chinese to compete for these jobs when you're just starting in your late teens? I feel like one would never

Is there any hope of becoming proficient enough at chinese to compete for these jobs when you're just starting in your late teens? I feel like one would never stand a chance against someone who was raised in a bilingual house.

Ekaros 3y ago
Bilingual could allow you to work in some capacity. But in teaching those people really don't always know why. Why is something correct or why is something wrong. What is probably a good learning path. Just think of average native speaker. They can tell that something is wrong, but they can't always explaining in common framework why is it wrong. And then if you get money involved, you probably want version in both languages or even more. And those have to be correct exactly.
csa 3y ago
> Is there any hope of becoming proficient enough at chinese to compete for these jobs when you're just starting in your late teens? Yes… sort of. First, folks who have learned the language as adults are often better at teaching early stages of language learning. Bilingual folks may know what is right or sounds right, but they may not know why. Second, folks who are bilingual mostly by speaking the language in their home often have a very limited scope of knowledge of the language. The range of language needed to teach at a university or to a higher level of proficiency (beyond tourist level) requires a much wider range of target language knowledge. Third, for folks who want to become a professor, their research will matter much more than their ability to teach the nuts and bolts of the language. Lastly, at most universities that teach Chinese, you have mostly if not exclusively grad students from China teaching the pure language stuff. Someone who has a major in Chinese will be teaching literature, linguistics, culture, or something similar.
magpi3 3y ago
Yes. I have lived in China for about five years, and while I myself am not yet fluent, I have met several foreigners who started learning Chinese in their twenties and who are completely fluent and can speak like native speakers. I have almost met Chinese people who have never lived abroad, started learning English in their teens, and who speak English as fluently as a native. I think it's all about the immersion and the willingness to keep up with it.
- kaashif 3y ago
  If you're not fluent in Chinese, how could you tell if someone speaks Chinese like a native? I'm only a native speaker of English, but I know vast swathes of native Chinese speakers who have been in the US for decades and sound nothing like native English speakers. I know ones that do sound like native speakers too, but it's rare in my experience. I don't think immersion is anywhere close to sufficient to guarantee native-like proficiency, there's something else. I don't know what the something else is.
  - magpi3 3y ago
    Because I have been with them in group settings, and although I am not fluent I understand a lot. They can speak at native speed and are never confused about what is being said. Basically that's it. Have you lived abroad? Living in China has dispelled a lot of my previous notions about what is possible when it comes to language. Another person I knew moved to China after college, taught English, and ended up staying her for forty years. My Chinese friend told me that when she speaks to him she forgets he is a foreigner. It happens.
    - kaashif 3y ago
      If a native Chinese speaker said that person speaks like a native, then I believe them. However I don't believe it's possible for a non fluent speaker to make that determination. I think we're on the same page with regards to whether a non native speaker can reach native levels. It can happen with a lot of work. But time and immersion alone doesn't do it, I've already said I've seen cases where that didn't work and some where it did.
CydeWeys 3y ago
There can be big benefits to being white in Asia for these kinds of jobs. They want to employ a foreign/"exotic" businessman to give them credibility. If you were raised bilingual, odds are you're Chinese and just fit in there.
peterfirefly 3y ago
> Is there any hope of becoming proficient enough at chinese to compete for these jobs when you're just starting in your late teens? Yes. (Classroom teaching/formal teaching is not gonna matter much -- consuming lots of Chinese content at just the right level will be much more effective.) > I feel like one would never stand a chance against someone who was raised in a bilingual house. Actually, you might. A lot of them are not raised with Mandarin -- or if they are, a heavily accented form of Mandarin. You can go straight to Mandarin. You might also have another advantage. If you put in the work, you will learn how to read and write. A lot of the bilingual types raised outside of China have not put in the hours and are basically illiterate in Chinese. And finally, your ability to communicate in Chinese -- or any foreign language -- is not just a question of fluency or having as little accent as possible. It is very much a matter of how you choose to express yourself. IQ matters a lot here. Donald Tusk (former PM of Poland, former President of the European Council) is a great As an example of someone who was able to express himself very well, despite a poor grasp of English.

Ekaros 3y ago

Bilingual could allow you to work in some capacity. But in teaching those people really don't always know why. Why is something correct or why is something wrong. What is probably a good learning path. Just think of average native speaker. They can tell that something is wrong, but they can't always explaining in common framework why is it wrong. And then if you get money involved, you probably want version in both languages or even more. And those have to be correct exactly.

csa 3y ago

> Is there any hope of becoming proficient enough at chinese to compete for these jobs when you're just starting in your late teens? Yes… sort of. First, folks who have learned the language as adults are often better at teaching early stages of language learning. Bilingual folks may know what is right or sounds right, but they may not know why. Second, folks who are bilingual mostly by speaking the language in their home often have a very limited scope of knowledge of the language. The range of language needed to teach at a university or to a higher level of proficiency (beyond tourist level) requires a much wider range of target language knowledge. Third, for folks who want to become a professor, their research will matter much more than their ability to teach the nuts and bolts of the language. Lastly, at most universities that teach Chinese, you have mostly if not exclusively grad students from China teaching the pure language stuff. Someone who has a major in Chinese will be teaching literature, linguistics, culture, or something similar.

magpi3 3y ago

Yes. I have lived in China for about five years, and while I myself am not yet fluent, I have met several foreigners who started learning Chinese in their twenties and who are completely fluent and can speak like native speakers. I have almost met Chinese people who have never lived abroad, started learning English in their teens, and who speak English as fluently as a native. I think it's all about the immersion and the willingness to keep up with it.

kaashif 3y ago
If you're not fluent in Chinese, how could you tell if someone speaks Chinese like a native? I'm only a native speaker of English, but I know vast swathes of native Chinese speakers who have been in the US for decades and sound nothing like native English speakers. I know ones that do sound like native speakers too, but it's rare in my experience. I don't think immersion is anywhere close to sufficient to guarantee native-like proficiency, there's something else. I don't know what the something else is.
- magpi3 3y ago
  Because I have been with them in group settings, and although I am not fluent I understand a lot. They can speak at native speed and are never confused about what is being said. Basically that's it. Have you lived abroad? Living in China has dispelled a lot of my previous notions about what is possible when it comes to language. Another person I knew moved to China after college, taught English, and ended up staying her for forty years. My Chinese friend told me that when she speaks to him she forgets he is a foreigner. It happens.
  - kaashif 3y ago
    If a native Chinese speaker said that person speaks like a native, then I believe them. However I don't believe it's possible for a non fluent speaker to make that determination. I think we're on the same page with regards to whether a non native speaker can reach native levels. It can happen with a lot of work. But time and immersion alone doesn't do it, I've already said I've seen cases where that didn't work and some where it did.

CydeWeys 3y ago

There can be big benefits to being white in Asia for these kinds of jobs. They want to employ a foreign/"exotic" businessman to give them credibility. If you were raised bilingual, odds are you're Chinese and just fit in there.

peterfirefly 3y ago

> Is there any hope of becoming proficient enough at chinese to compete for these jobs when you're just starting in your late teens? Yes. (Classroom teaching/formal teaching is not gonna matter much -- consuming lots of Chinese content at just the right level will be much more effective.) > I feel like one would never stand a chance against someone who was raised in a bilingual house. Actually, you might. A lot of them are not raised with Mandarin -- or if they are, a heavily accented form of Mandarin. You can go straight to Mandarin. You might also have another advantage. If you put in the work, you will learn how to read and write. A lot of the bilingual types raised outside of China have not put in the hours and are basically illiterate in Chinese. And finally, your ability to communicate in Chinese -- or any foreign language -- is not just a question of fluency or having as little accent as possible. It is very much a matter of how you choose to express yourself. IQ matters a lot here. Donald Tusk (former PM of Poland, former President of the European Council) is a great As an example of someone who was able to express himself very well, despite a poor grasp of English.