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BMW no longer sells service manuals for their bikes. There are, essentially, bootlegs on line, but my understanding is that while before they had a dedicated W

BMW no longer sells service manuals for their bikes. There are, essentially, bootlegs on line, but my understanding is that while before they had a dedicated Window application for their manuals, they're moving to an online only system, and only for dealers. So, while there are manuals floating around now, who knows how that will go moving forward. Obviously, this will be a key sticking point in the future with the "right to repair" laws trickling through the state legislatures.

dharmab 3y ago
Yup, exactly. I was one of the last mortals to get a copy of the software for my BMW motorcycle and now field emails from riders worldwide looking for service data.
koolba 3y ago
What’s the rationale for not releasing a manual? To force you to take into a dealer for service? It’s not like they have to make a separate manual. It has to exist for the dealer anyway right?
- SoftTalker 3y ago
  For modern vehicles, the dealers really don't use manuals anymore. They connect their proprietary diagnostic computer, it runs all the tests and figures out what is wrong, and tells the mechanic what to replace or adjust. You can sometimes find bootlegs of these computers (generally a "tough" Windows laptop with software and connecting cables). They usually don't have the latest and greatest version of the software, but if your car is older/out of warranty it's generally covered. I don't know if they get them from a recycle stream or dealer mechanics sell their old ones or how it works.
  - dharmab 3y ago
    This doesn't make any sense. Many regular issues are not diagnosable by computer. I have legacy access to some current BMW service data and it does not behave the way you describe at all- I only have to whip out the scanner for certain electrical and computer issues, and to update service schedules.
    - SoftTalker 3y ago
      Everything on a modern car runs through the computer. Climate control, entertainment systems, windows, lights, seats, various driver aids such as cruise control, lane-departure, blind spot warnings, hands-free driving, automatic/antilock braking, traction control, etc. as well as the engine and transmisison. Sure, something like a failing wheel bearing would still be diagnosed by the mechanic, but they need the scanners for most of the problems on a modern car.
      - dharmab 3y ago
        Oh, I thought you were talking about motorcycles. My BMW motorcycle has only 2 of the 11 features you mentioned :)
      - alamortsubite 3y ago
        You're right, but just to have fun with the example you gave- some wheel bearings now incorporate a wheel speed sensor. So even those might, in fact, be first diagnosed by the computer, depending on the failure mode.
  - whartung 3y ago
    The computer diagnostics don’t tell the technician how to do the replacement. The service manual has all of the procedures, parts lists, and special tools necessary for the job.
- dharmab 3y ago
  A legitimate reason is to move the service data online so it can be continuously updated and accessible from a web browser instead of the chunky Windows app they were using before straight out of 1995. But other manufacturers who do this make the data available to consumers via AllData or similar services. BMW does not, presumably to make more money on service.
- zer8k 3y ago
  The $200/hr service charge most european motorcycle dealers charge. There are two things I can't do myself. Particularly, bleeding the ABS (which requires the dealer tool) and re-shimming the engine (which also requires a dealer tool). My local stealership wants exactly $200/hr for every service. An oil change for my motorcycle is $300, a brake job is $650. Mind you parts for these jobs are in the mid-to-low XX's. It's ALL service fees. Reshimming the engine (once every 15k miles or so) costs a minimum of $1200 going up to $2000 if the engine needs significant adjustment. I've shimmed sportbikes for years and 6-8 hours worth of work is insane. I can do it in a few hours excluding the time to go get beer. It's borderline theft. "Stealership" is not tongue in cheek. I am seriously considering trading in my motorcycle for cash (even at a loss) and re-buying an old R100GS.
  - dharmab 3y ago
    > Reshimming the engine (once every 15k miles or so) costs a minimum of $1200 going up to $2000 if the engine needs significant adjustment. Wow, your dealer is really raking their customers. Mine charges about $200 to check valves on a parallel twin.
    - vladvasiliu 3y ago
      I think it may depend on brands and models. When I take my specific Honda in for the scheduled maintenance, the dealer seems to apply a standard, Honda-dictated price, which is the same at all the dealerships I've visited. This usually includes the labor and replacement for the parts which the manual says need replacing on a schedule, except for fluids. If I need tires, brake pads, that's separate. I know this is a fixed price because last time I took it in, it was a "bigger" service, where they had to check valve clearances. But apparently something went wrong when they tried to take apart something (I forget the details) so they had to work much longer than expected on it. In the end, I didn't have to pay more than I had expected, taking it in. Now, all this isn't to say it's cheap. I was horrified with the prices: it often costs more than my Mercedes' service at a Mercedes dealership.
    - ce4 3y ago
      That depends on the number of cylinders, valves per cylinder, and so on. Your parallel twin is probably easier to service (accessability of valve covers, valve mechanism). Some designs require the removal of the gas tank and even camshafts (eg Suzuki V-Strom). (Old) Ducatis are also a pain with the desmodromic valves (i.e. springless valves). Some of their valves have 0,0 clearance and the mechanic needs to hone down shims to an exact fit. Also the reshimming needs to be redone on older Ducs after only a few thousand kilometers/miles, or annually. In contrast, BMWs older air/oilcooled boxer engines are a joy to service, easiest accessability (cylinder heads stick out sideways), only 3 tools needed for adjusting valve clearances (two types of Torx/allen keys and a feeler gauge set), 20mins of work or less depending on your routine.
porknubbins 3y ago
That is really bad I did not know that. I assume it goes for automobiles too. Have no plans to get a new BMW bike but I will definitely take that into consideration in the future.
yencabulator 3y ago
I fully expect the Apple model next, where even if you can physically replace a part, the system will refuse to operate until the new part is blessed by the proprietary software.

dharmab 3y ago

Yup, exactly. I was one of the last mortals to get a copy of the software for my BMW motorcycle and now field emails from riders worldwide looking for service data.

koolba 3y ago

What’s the rationale for not releasing a manual? To force you to take into a dealer for service? It’s not like they have to make a separate manual. It has to exist for the dealer anyway right?

SoftTalker 3y ago
For modern vehicles, the dealers really don't use manuals anymore. They connect their proprietary diagnostic computer, it runs all the tests and figures out what is wrong, and tells the mechanic what to replace or adjust. You can sometimes find bootlegs of these computers (generally a "tough" Windows laptop with software and connecting cables). They usually don't have the latest and greatest version of the software, but if your car is older/out of warranty it's generally covered. I don't know if they get them from a recycle stream or dealer mechanics sell their old ones or how it works.
- dharmab 3y ago
  This doesn't make any sense. Many regular issues are not diagnosable by computer. I have legacy access to some current BMW service data and it does not behave the way you describe at all- I only have to whip out the scanner for certain electrical and computer issues, and to update service schedules.
  - SoftTalker 3y ago
    Everything on a modern car runs through the computer. Climate control, entertainment systems, windows, lights, seats, various driver aids such as cruise control, lane-departure, blind spot warnings, hands-free driving, automatic/antilock braking, traction control, etc. as well as the engine and transmisison. Sure, something like a failing wheel bearing would still be diagnosed by the mechanic, but they need the scanners for most of the problems on a modern car.
    - dharmab 3y ago
      Oh, I thought you were talking about motorcycles. My BMW motorcycle has only 2 of the 11 features you mentioned :)
    - alamortsubite 3y ago
      You're right, but just to have fun with the example you gave- some wheel bearings now incorporate a wheel speed sensor. So even those might, in fact, be first diagnosed by the computer, depending on the failure mode.
- whartung 3y ago
  The computer diagnostics don’t tell the technician how to do the replacement. The service manual has all of the procedures, parts lists, and special tools necessary for the job.
dharmab 3y ago
A legitimate reason is to move the service data online so it can be continuously updated and accessible from a web browser instead of the chunky Windows app they were using before straight out of 1995. But other manufacturers who do this make the data available to consumers via AllData or similar services. BMW does not, presumably to make more money on service.
zer8k 3y ago
The $200/hr service charge most european motorcycle dealers charge. There are two things I can't do myself. Particularly, bleeding the ABS (which requires the dealer tool) and re-shimming the engine (which also requires a dealer tool). My local stealership wants exactly $200/hr for every service. An oil change for my motorcycle is $300, a brake job is $650. Mind you parts for these jobs are in the mid-to-low XX's. It's ALL service fees. Reshimming the engine (once every 15k miles or so) costs a minimum of $1200 going up to $2000 if the engine needs significant adjustment. I've shimmed sportbikes for years and 6-8 hours worth of work is insane. I can do it in a few hours excluding the time to go get beer. It's borderline theft. "Stealership" is not tongue in cheek. I am seriously considering trading in my motorcycle for cash (even at a loss) and re-buying an old R100GS.
- dharmab 3y ago
  > Reshimming the engine (once every 15k miles or so) costs a minimum of $1200 going up to $2000 if the engine needs significant adjustment. Wow, your dealer is really raking their customers. Mine charges about $200 to check valves on a parallel twin.
  - vladvasiliu 3y ago
    I think it may depend on brands and models. When I take my specific Honda in for the scheduled maintenance, the dealer seems to apply a standard, Honda-dictated price, which is the same at all the dealerships I've visited. This usually includes the labor and replacement for the parts which the manual says need replacing on a schedule, except for fluids. If I need tires, brake pads, that's separate. I know this is a fixed price because last time I took it in, it was a "bigger" service, where they had to check valve clearances. But apparently something went wrong when they tried to take apart something (I forget the details) so they had to work much longer than expected on it. In the end, I didn't have to pay more than I had expected, taking it in. Now, all this isn't to say it's cheap. I was horrified with the prices: it often costs more than my Mercedes' service at a Mercedes dealership.
  - ce4 3y ago
    That depends on the number of cylinders, valves per cylinder, and so on. Your parallel twin is probably easier to service (accessability of valve covers, valve mechanism). Some designs require the removal of the gas tank and even camshafts (eg Suzuki V-Strom). (Old) Ducatis are also a pain with the desmodromic valves (i.e. springless valves). Some of their valves have 0,0 clearance and the mechanic needs to hone down shims to an exact fit. Also the reshimming needs to be redone on older Ducs after only a few thousand kilometers/miles, or annually. In contrast, BMWs older air/oilcooled boxer engines are a joy to service, easiest accessability (cylinder heads stick out sideways), only 3 tools needed for adjusting valve clearances (two types of Torx/allen keys and a feeler gauge set), 20mins of work or less depending on your routine.

porknubbins 3y ago

That is really bad I did not know that. I assume it goes for automobiles too. Have no plans to get a new BMW bike but I will definitely take that into consideration in the future.

yencabulator 3y ago

I fully expect the Apple model next, where even if you can physically replace a part, the system will refuse to operate until the new part is blessed by the proprietary software.