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Are there any OEMs whose service manuals are hard to find? I restore cars and motorcycles and have never had trouble finding a pdf or hard copy for around $20.

Are there any OEMs whose service manuals are hard to find? I restore cars and motorcycles and have never had trouble finding a pdf or hard copy for around $20. Its good that they are doing this though a lot of the secrets I’d want to know about an electric motorcycle are about the ECU when that software is some of the most tightly guarded of any.

nicbou 3y ago
Suzuki. 100€ or more, and only if you ask your dealership politely. Same for Renault. I had to find a torrent somewhere.
mintplant 3y ago
I acquired an old Sony CMT-EX1 CD player a while back and was tinkering around with it. I found the service manual online and was blown away. There are pinouts! Block diagrams [0] for the PCBs! Capacitor inventories! I wish we still did this for consumer hardware. [0] https://servlib.com/sony/audio/cmt-ex1-hcd-ex1.html?start=29 https://servlib.com/sony/audio/cmt-ex1-hcd-ex1.html?start=29
- kushie 3y ago
  this is out of nowhere but if anyone can help me find a service manual (not owners manual) for a Yamaha Clavinova CLP-50 i would be in deep gratitude. a few octaves intermittently don't work and i'd love to tinker
  - sobkas 3y ago
    It's service manual, at least it says so https://elektrotanya.com/yamaha_clp-50_sm.pdf/download.html https://elektrotanya.com/yamaha_clp-50_sm.pdf/download.html
  - notjulianjaynes 3y ago
    https://elektrotanya.com/yamaha_clp-50_sm.pdf/download.html https://elektrotanya.com/yamaha_clp-50_sm.pdf/download.html
- sobkas 3y ago
  Making old technology viable instead of buying new one, or even worse tinkering with it and unlocking or adding new functionality corporations reserved for higher end models, professional equipment or just outright didn't want to implement assured it will never happen. In the past only few tinkerers actually cared about this. Now everything is on the internet and everyone have access to it. This is a season for planed obsolescence after all. I'm not saying it's good, it's just what it is.
- mk_stjames 3y ago
  Japanese service manuals for electronics, especially ones starting in the early 80's when the printing quality started getting really good, are a sight to behold. In the era before the EDA software did everything, the annotated schematics and PCB board layouts in the manuals are gorgeous, especially those by Sony and Matsushita / Panasonic. When the EDA tools started making the prints fully automatically and all the tables and notes just became automated outputs to PDF... it kinda killed a bit of the artistry that went into the layouts of the prints. I also feel that the care and choosing the fonts / lettering styles / etc. have become eschewed in favor of just putting out whatever the defaults are from current software without care of adjustment. It's why all published schematics these days look alike, and boring by comparison. The early Walkman manuals are a good example of this: https://archive.org/details/wm-f15_202004/SONYWM-DD_service_manual/page/n11/mode/2up https://archive.org/details/wm-f15_202004/SONYWM-DD_service_... The perfect little isometric views of the special isolated components in boxes along the outside, the shading of the traces on the PCB....
  - robomartin 3y ago
    > killed a bit of the artistry that went into the layouts Yes. Absolutely. Sadly, EDA tools like KiCad and Altium (two of the ones I use most often) make absolutely ugly schematics. Just horrible looking stuff. I always thought this had to do with engineers who did not necessarily come up drawing schematics by hand. In the later-70's to early 80's --and a little beyond-- you could pickup magazines like Byte and Popular Electronics and see beautifully drawn schematics that were well laid-out and easy to understand. Same with data books. I built lots of projects from those magazines back then. Later on, professionally, I developed a schematic drafting style that mimicked the beautiful schematics from those publications. CAD requires an effort. You can produce great looking schematics. It depends on how you choose to produce your libraries. We make libraries that make great looking schematics. The difference in legibility is, in my opinion, worth the time we spend creating good looking symbols and parts.
lasc4r 3y ago
Do they not go out of their way to make it difficult? I had to scrounge google which led me to a forum thread for Triumph bike manuals. Only managed to get a link to a website associated with Triumph where they let you pay on a per day basis to look at manuals. Spent almost an hour making folders and manually downloading every individual section. My takeaway is that they want their bikes to get serviced at dealers rather than allow people to more easily work on their own bikes.
nocterro 3y ago
It’s possibly because I’m looking for Australian models and it’s a smaller market, but I’ve never had much luck finding service manuals free or paid for my vehicles. Do you have any tips for where to search? I should say specific examples are the Ford Territory and the Great Wall Steed (Wingle 6 in the domestic market).
- porknubbins 3y ago
  Those are models I haven’t heard of. The best place used to be enthusiast forums but in the past decade that has switched to Facebook groups for a lot of vehicles.
whartung 3y ago
BMW no longer sells service manuals for their bikes. There are, essentially, bootlegs on line, but my understanding is that while before they had a dedicated Window application for their manuals, they're moving to an online only system, and only for dealers. So, while there are manuals floating around now, who knows how that will go moving forward. Obviously, this will be a key sticking point in the future with the "right to repair" laws trickling through the state legislatures.
- dharmab 3y ago
  Yup, exactly. I was one of the last mortals to get a copy of the software for my BMW motorcycle and now field emails from riders worldwide looking for service data.
- koolba 3y ago
  What’s the rationale for not releasing a manual? To force you to take into a dealer for service? It’s not like they have to make a separate manual. It has to exist for the dealer anyway right?
  - SoftTalker 3y ago
    For modern vehicles, the dealers really don't use manuals anymore. They connect their proprietary diagnostic computer, it runs all the tests and figures out what is wrong, and tells the mechanic what to replace or adjust. You can sometimes find bootlegs of these computers (generally a "tough" Windows laptop with software and connecting cables). They usually don't have the latest and greatest version of the software, but if your car is older/out of warranty it's generally covered. I don't know if they get them from a recycle stream or dealer mechanics sell their old ones or how it works.
    - dharmab 3y ago
      This doesn't make any sense. Many regular issues are not diagnosable by computer. I have legacy access to some current BMW service data and it does not behave the way you describe at all- I only have to whip out the scanner for certain electrical and computer issues, and to update service schedules.
userbinator 3y ago
Your mention of "restore" suggests mainly older models, which certainly did have far more widely-distributed service literature and are simpler than newer vehicles.
- porknubbins 3y ago
  Yes I mainly work on older vehicles which are simpler. I did find a pdf on my 2015 Hyundai and have bought others of similar age off ebay though.
dharmab 3y ago
Volvo's data is only available via digital subscription. BMW motorcycle data is not available at all to consumers anymore, only certified techs. Suzuki doesn't publish data, but Clymer usually fills the gap. By contrast, Honda will still sell you some really great dead tree manuals on their motorcycles.
- Gracana 3y ago
  KTM, too. My buddy got a 450 XC-F and he was able to buy a service manual directly from them.
Daneel_ 3y ago
It’s impossible to get them for a modern Volvo, for example. I couldn’t even get them to provide me with a wiring diagram for the rear fuse block so I could wire in a trailer brake controller. I managed it via inspection, but it was really poor.
winddude 3y ago
More rare and special edition cars. Like a number of the SRT cars didn't used to be covered in the regular dodge service manuals.
deet 3y ago
I pay like $8/month for access to my 2021 Triumph’s service manual. As far as I know they keep it as an interactive website so that PDFs are hard to make. I haven’t found a good copy yet but it’s also possible that I’m just not as good at searching for pirated content as back in the old torrenting days (or perhaps just less motivated)
- dharmab 3y ago
  PDF export is tricky so I usually take screenshots and transcribe info into my own notebook.
- vGPU 3y ago
  Just write a screenshot -> next page macro
zer8k 3y ago
Oh yeah. Triumph in particular is notorious for this. For most bikes made beyond 2018 or so there are nearly no 3rd party manuals available. You have to pay, quite literally by the page or by the hour, to view the manuals on their website. For older bikes its often easier. Clymer's has a substantial library that are often better than even the dealer mechanic book. I'm the mechanic among my group of friends and newer bikes are exceedingly difficult to not only work on, but also find proper manuals for.
benoliver999 3y ago
I have a 2003 Citroen and it's easy to find the service manual but very hard to use it. It's not a PDF you can just flip through, it's software. You have to run it in a windows XP VM, following a very specific set of installation instructions. Getting locked out for no reason is very common (so you just boot a backup of the VM). Not for the faint of heart.
jve 3y ago
I waited for a technical thread to ask this question: where can DIYers that want to fix their own car get a manual with wiring diagrams, service bullettins, troubleshooting procedures without paying alot in subscription (hundreds per year)?
- mike_d 3y ago
  Haynes or Chilton manuals (they are the same company now). You can pick them up at auto parts stores, Amazon, or buy PDFs online. They are based on the official tech manuals and only cover the stuff that is within reason of a home or small shop mechanic, and don't require you to have manufacturer specific tools in most cases.

nicbou 3y ago

Suzuki. 100€ or more, and only if you ask your dealership politely. Same for Renault. I had to find a torrent somewhere.

mintplant 3y ago

I acquired an old Sony CMT-EX1 CD player a while back and was tinkering around with it. I found the service manual online and was blown away. There are pinouts! Block diagrams [0] for the PCBs! Capacitor inventories! I wish we still did this for consumer hardware. [0] https://servlib.com/sony/audio/cmt-ex1-hcd-ex1.html?start=29 https://servlib.com/sony/audio/cmt-ex1-hcd-ex1.html?start=29

kushie 3y ago
this is out of nowhere but if anyone can help me find a service manual (not owners manual) for a Yamaha Clavinova CLP-50 i would be in deep gratitude. a few octaves intermittently don't work and i'd love to tinker
- sobkas 3y ago
  It's service manual, at least it says so https://elektrotanya.com/yamaha_clp-50_sm.pdf/download.html https://elektrotanya.com/yamaha_clp-50_sm.pdf/download.html
- notjulianjaynes 3y ago
  https://elektrotanya.com/yamaha_clp-50_sm.pdf/download.html https://elektrotanya.com/yamaha_clp-50_sm.pdf/download.html
sobkas 3y ago
Making old technology viable instead of buying new one, or even worse tinkering with it and unlocking or adding new functionality corporations reserved for higher end models, professional equipment or just outright didn't want to implement assured it will never happen. In the past only few tinkerers actually cared about this. Now everything is on the internet and everyone have access to it. This is a season for planed obsolescence after all. I'm not saying it's good, it's just what it is.
mk_stjames 3y ago
Japanese service manuals for electronics, especially ones starting in the early 80's when the printing quality started getting really good, are a sight to behold. In the era before the EDA software did everything, the annotated schematics and PCB board layouts in the manuals are gorgeous, especially those by Sony and Matsushita / Panasonic. When the EDA tools started making the prints fully automatically and all the tables and notes just became automated outputs to PDF... it kinda killed a bit of the artistry that went into the layouts of the prints. I also feel that the care and choosing the fonts / lettering styles / etc. have become eschewed in favor of just putting out whatever the defaults are from current software without care of adjustment. It's why all published schematics these days look alike, and boring by comparison. The early Walkman manuals are a good example of this: https://archive.org/details/wm-f15_202004/SONYWM-DD_service_manual/page/n11/mode/2up https://archive.org/details/wm-f15_202004/SONYWM-DD_service_... The perfect little isometric views of the special isolated components in boxes along the outside, the shading of the traces on the PCB....
- robomartin 3y ago
  > killed a bit of the artistry that went into the layouts Yes. Absolutely. Sadly, EDA tools like KiCad and Altium (two of the ones I use most often) make absolutely ugly schematics. Just horrible looking stuff. I always thought this had to do with engineers who did not necessarily come up drawing schematics by hand. In the later-70's to early 80's --and a little beyond-- you could pickup magazines like Byte and Popular Electronics and see beautifully drawn schematics that were well laid-out and easy to understand. Same with data books. I built lots of projects from those magazines back then. Later on, professionally, I developed a schematic drafting style that mimicked the beautiful schematics from those publications. CAD requires an effort. You can produce great looking schematics. It depends on how you choose to produce your libraries. We make libraries that make great looking schematics. The difference in legibility is, in my opinion, worth the time we spend creating good looking symbols and parts.

lasc4r 3y ago

Do they not go out of their way to make it difficult? I had to scrounge google which led me to a forum thread for Triumph bike manuals. Only managed to get a link to a website associated with Triumph where they let you pay on a per day basis to look at manuals. Spent almost an hour making folders and manually downloading every individual section. My takeaway is that they want their bikes to get serviced at dealers rather than allow people to more easily work on their own bikes.

nocterro 3y ago

It’s possibly because I’m looking for Australian models and it’s a smaller market, but I’ve never had much luck finding service manuals free or paid for my vehicles. Do you have any tips for where to search? I should say specific examples are the Ford Territory and the Great Wall Steed (Wingle 6 in the domestic market).

porknubbins 3y ago
Those are models I haven’t heard of. The best place used to be enthusiast forums but in the past decade that has switched to Facebook groups for a lot of vehicles.

whartung 3y ago

BMW no longer sells service manuals for their bikes. There are, essentially, bootlegs on line, but my understanding is that while before they had a dedicated Window application for their manuals, they're moving to an online only system, and only for dealers. So, while there are manuals floating around now, who knows how that will go moving forward. Obviously, this will be a key sticking point in the future with the "right to repair" laws trickling through the state legislatures.

dharmab 3y ago
Yup, exactly. I was one of the last mortals to get a copy of the software for my BMW motorcycle and now field emails from riders worldwide looking for service data.
koolba 3y ago
What’s the rationale for not releasing a manual? To force you to take into a dealer for service? It’s not like they have to make a separate manual. It has to exist for the dealer anyway right?
- SoftTalker 3y ago
  For modern vehicles, the dealers really don't use manuals anymore. They connect their proprietary diagnostic computer, it runs all the tests and figures out what is wrong, and tells the mechanic what to replace or adjust. You can sometimes find bootlegs of these computers (generally a "tough" Windows laptop with software and connecting cables). They usually don't have the latest and greatest version of the software, but if your car is older/out of warranty it's generally covered. I don't know if they get them from a recycle stream or dealer mechanics sell their old ones or how it works.
  - dharmab 3y ago
    This doesn't make any sense. Many regular issues are not diagnosable by computer. I have legacy access to some current BMW service data and it does not behave the way you describe at all- I only have to whip out the scanner for certain electrical and computer issues, and to update service schedules.

userbinator 3y ago

Your mention of "restore" suggests mainly older models, which certainly did have far more widely-distributed service literature and are simpler than newer vehicles.

porknubbins 3y ago
Yes I mainly work on older vehicles which are simpler. I did find a pdf on my 2015 Hyundai and have bought others of similar age off ebay though.

dharmab 3y ago

Volvo's data is only available via digital subscription. BMW motorcycle data is not available at all to consumers anymore, only certified techs. Suzuki doesn't publish data, but Clymer usually fills the gap. By contrast, Honda will still sell you some really great dead tree manuals on their motorcycles.

Gracana 3y ago
KTM, too. My buddy got a 450 XC-F and he was able to buy a service manual directly from them.

Daneel_ 3y ago

It’s impossible to get them for a modern Volvo, for example. I couldn’t even get them to provide me with a wiring diagram for the rear fuse block so I could wire in a trailer brake controller. I managed it via inspection, but it was really poor.

winddude 3y ago

More rare and special edition cars. Like a number of the SRT cars didn't used to be covered in the regular dodge service manuals.

deet 3y ago

I pay like $8/month for access to my 2021 Triumph’s service manual. As far as I know they keep it as an interactive website so that PDFs are hard to make. I haven’t found a good copy yet but it’s also possible that I’m just not as good at searching for pirated content as back in the old torrenting days (or perhaps just less motivated)

dharmab 3y ago
PDF export is tricky so I usually take screenshots and transcribe info into my own notebook.
vGPU 3y ago
Just write a screenshot -> next page macro

zer8k 3y ago

Oh yeah. Triumph in particular is notorious for this. For most bikes made beyond 2018 or so there are nearly no 3rd party manuals available. You have to pay, quite literally by the page or by the hour, to view the manuals on their website. For older bikes its often easier. Clymer's has a substantial library that are often better than even the dealer mechanic book. I'm the mechanic among my group of friends and newer bikes are exceedingly difficult to not only work on, but also find proper manuals for.

benoliver999 3y ago

I have a 2003 Citroen and it's easy to find the service manual but very hard to use it. It's not a PDF you can just flip through, it's software. You have to run it in a windows XP VM, following a very specific set of installation instructions. Getting locked out for no reason is very common (so you just boot a backup of the VM). Not for the faint of heart.

jve 3y ago

I waited for a technical thread to ask this question: where can DIYers that want to fix their own car get a manual with wiring diagrams, service bullettins, troubleshooting procedures without paying alot in subscription (hundreds per year)?

mike_d 3y ago
Haynes or Chilton manuals (they are the same company now). You can pick them up at auto parts stores, Amazon, or buy PDFs online. They are based on the official tech manuals and only cover the stuff that is within reason of a home or small shop mechanic, and don't require you to have manufacturer specific tools in most cases.