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To quote pg: "A hacker who has learned what to make, and not just how to make, is extraordinarily powerful." As a developer, it is frustrating to see fellow de

by jayliew 15y ago

To quote pg: "A hacker who has learned what to make, and not just how to make, is extraordinarily powerful." As a developer, it is frustrating to see fellow developers place too much importance on being able to code as a necessary ingredient for startup success. As a hacker, I'd say that most hackers know how to make, but don't know what to make. That is to say, most startups from these type of hackers with the "if I build they will come"[1] mentality end up basically degenerating into non-profits or open-source (when their intent was to become the next big for-profit company). To my fellow hardcore hackers. Please get over yourself and learn some non-technical skills: sales, marketing, design, product UI/UX, biz dev, getting distribution, negotiation skills, heck - some people skills! (this comment not withstanding since I'm frustrated with the comment above). If you're going to look down on people who can't code, you should get out of your own comfort zone and do all those non-technical things I've just listed above first. Kevin Rose has a rolodex, which I'm sure has benefits to whatever his entrepreneurial venture is. You don't? Why not? Learn how to hustle. Just because you can't code, doesn't mean you can't build a business - and vice versa - just because you can code, doesn't mean you can build a business. / end rant [1] exception, not the rule

_sentient 15y ago
I completely agree. Even better, learn to both hack and hustle. That is truly where the magic happens.
zerostar07 15y ago
Sometimes there may be obstacles to what you propose. Being good at networking etc. is basically a performance skill that doesn't just depend on mindset, but also on good looks, race/culture, age, sex, general likability or other external factors. This is not mentioned often, and I might be wrong but I think it is a factor, despite the fact that the startup world presents itself as the ultimate meritocracy.
- jayliew 15y ago
  People's natural tendency to associate good looks with intelligence, etc. has been documented (IIRC), but I completely disagree that it cannot be overcome if YOU decide you will "fix" it. Example: Sean Stephenson http://timetostand.com/ http://timetostand.com/ (see short video) Not attacking you personally - but anybody, .. anybody at all who gives me that response are basically chickening out. Consider this the opposite problem of "business guy don't want to even learn how to code, give all sorts of reasons". Technical guy don't want to learn how to hustle, give all sorts of reasons. Again, Sean Stephenson.
  - zerostar07 15y ago
    Yeah this is not meant to be an excuse at all. But it used to be that code/innovation mattered more than words, PR etc. Certainly the oldest tech companies were of the "build it and they will come" type. If nowadays who you hang around with matters so much, does that mean that information tech has somehow already peaked?
    - Drbble 15y ago
      Well yeah, look at all the hot startups out there. Except for a few orgs at the extreme high end of tech, a YC style startup is a marketing project with basic IT. Dropbox and a couple others might be an exception.
    - jayliew 15y ago
      Customers don't care about your cool technology, they pay you to solve a real problem they have. That has always been the case. If you see a successful company with cool technology, it's because it ALSO solved a real pain the customer had. There's plenty of startups doing "cool stuff" but it doesn't solve a problem, and therefore it doesn't go anywhere. So I'd reframe the question: it's more about solving real problems. If you can solve it with cool new innovation/code, great. I assume the goal we're talking about here is to build a for-profit business.
- anigbrowl 15y ago
  I was at an academic conference earlier this month, and several of the speakers made affectionate jokes about one of the speakers - how he couldn't shut up, how he was impossibly argumentative, how he was terribly rude, and basically how he was a bit of a troll. And they were right, he was all those things, plus he looked a bit like a frog. Imagine a short frog with glasses, a thick Noo Yawk accent, and the social graces of a falling brick. And yet he was such a persuasive and entertaining speaker than even when I thought he was dead wrong I wanted to hear more and find common ground with him. I liked him even when he was being an ass, and even in cases where I knew he was wrong (eg when he deliberately skipped over some significant issue because it undermined the argument he was making). The things you mention help, but are by no means essential. You don't even need to believe in yourself, as long as you believe sufficiently in your idea.
- krschultz 15y ago
  I don't think 'good looks' matter as much as 'clean looks'. Shave. Shower. Get a haircut. Despite the 'hoodie chic' look, make sure it's a clean hoodie. Or better yet, wear something nicer. (no, not a suit, but a step up from a hoodie will help people take you seriously). As far as general likeability goes, usually that stems from people either complaining or saying offense things. All of that is under your control.
  - ahoyhere 15y ago
    Body posture is more important than actual innate attractiveness. Body posture creates attractiveness.
secretasiandan 15y ago
I think you've entirely missed his point. Note that he says: "It doesn't matter if they understand how to code or not." His main point? "Once they have that reputation as being awesome it will stick around no matter how badly they perform after their initial success" And I totally agree. In fact, after a success the odds are more in your favor. So if you can't succeed again, it calls into question your 'true' level of talent.
- jayliew 15y ago
  Did Oink fail because of product, or market? If it's product, being technical will help, if it's market, being technical won't help. (edit: to add, the product worked - so it likely wasn't a problem with the product.)
  - ralphos 15y ago
    Yes the product worked, but perhaps the product didn't fit the market?
    - jayliew 15y ago
      Which is what I'm guessing as well. Since it's not a product-issue, Kevin's not-coding didn't hurt. Which was the point I was trying to get at. Even if he could code, that wouldn't help solve the market-fit problem.
- winterchil 15y ago
  There's actually a good reason that you get credit for a long time and that is successes are so rare and valuable that you deserve credit for a long time. The vast majority of these silicon-valley companies are built with investors' money (typically from Venture Capital firms). The VC business model generates outsized returns on a few successful companies which pay for all the failures. Careers and entire funds can swing to success based on the outcome of one company so if you're a founder you deserve that credit. It also means you've returned tons of extra money to investors that pays for all your subsequent losses. Kevin Rose specifically is an interesting case because Digg was not a success for his investors, but her personally did well.
xpose2000 15y ago
I agree with you: "Just because you can't code, doesn't mean you can't build a business - and vice versa - just because you can code, doesn't mean you can build a business." I have worked for start-ups where people told me what to do, and also have my own bootstrapped start-up. I prefer the later. I think it is important to be well rounded in abilities from coding to business development. That way, you can see through people's bullshit a lot easier, and there is plenty of that going around in the industry. Having said that, you can be an ideas person, but those ideas better be successful more times than not. Success five years ago and failures at every turn since does not exactly invoke confidence.
- jayliew 15y ago
  This is a hits driven business. How many people do you see with a string of successes and zero failures? Kevin has had a few ventures, with varying degree of "success", which is more than most people can say. Consider the statistically typical case: it's complete failure and lost of time, money, and sweat. If you even break even, you're already way above average. So having even just a series of small wins is a big deal (not saying that Kevin's "win" was small - I have no inside info)
  - lrobb 15y ago
    Wow... A hits driven business? I had never thought of it like that before, but it makes so much sense and explains so many things... Like why google is willing to pay 1-2 million per developer... But half of the bay area companies on careers.stackoverflow don't offer relocation.
    - dennisgorelik 15y ago
      One of the reasons why companies do not offer relocation is that if person can be lured to move into Bay Area then the same person can be lured to move out of Bay Area.
      - peacemaker 15y ago
ootachi 15y ago
In fact, I'd say you should do more. Stop being a programmer. It's hard to get a job as a developer these days, and it'll all be outsourced to India and China soon anyway. Instead, you should go into sales and marketing.
- deleted 15y ago
  [deleted]
- untog 15y ago
  * It's hard to get a job as a developer these days* ...uh, where exactly? Everywhere I know of is crying out for developers. The case for outsourcing is hugely overstated- having your entire development team half the world and a seven hour time difference away is a very real issue.
  - ootachi 15y ago
    In the Bay Area. Everyone claims to be crying out for developers, but they reject all the candidates they're presented with, so in practice it's hard to get a job as a developer.
    - untog 15y ago
      I think what you mean to say is "it's hard to get a job as a developer if you're not a good candidate".
      - ootachi 15y ago
        More like "it's hard to get a job as a developer because companies' perceptions of 'good candidates' exclude everybody".
        tibbon 15y ago
        If you're actually a good developer (and easy person to get along with, not a serial murderer, etc) and in the bay area and can't find a programming gig... I don't know what you're doing wrong. I'm not the best developer in the world, and I practically get offers in just going to bars in SF...
mindcrime 15y ago
"if I build they will come"[1] mentality end up basically degenerating into non-profits or open-source (when their intent was to become the next big for-profit company). I get your point and mostly agree, but just want to stress that "open source" and "for profit" are not mutually exclusive. There are a handful of companies out there making a nice profit specifically by focusing on open source. That said, clearly it (building an "open source company") should be a conscious decision, and you have to understand the subtleties that go along with it.
sanderjd 15y ago
Here's an idea from a non-idea-guy: do for those of us who have no clue how to approach your list of non-technical skills what Codecademy has done for those with no idea how to approach programming. Start us slow, treat us like we know nothing, but give us the chance to prove otherwise. Allow us to work on our own time, and charge us orders of magnitude less than an MBA costs. I would pay for that.
- chernevik 15y ago
  Probably not doable. Not good at this stuff myself, but at core it seems to be driven by recognition of emotional states and making emotionally intelligent responses. This sort of thing isn't beyond learning -- disciplines like art, music, sports develop the core skills, and we can all become more self-aware. But it doesn't lend itself verbally stated principles.
  - sanderjd 15y ago
    Obviously it can't look much like Codecademy and perhaps it is not about verbally stated principles. Maybe the bigger question is: how does the progress that has been made by people using technology to reduce the financial and social barriers to learning technical material translate to learning "softer" material? If we want to eventually live in a world where the university in its current form has been superseded (and I do), someone needs to answer that question. It sounds hard and uncertain but very valuable if successful - a winning combination if you ask me.
    - chefsurfing 15y ago
      I am certain a world full of autodidacts would supersed the university system we see today. For these autodidacts the universe might truly become a "University of Life". I am also certain that the true barriers keeping most people from becoming autodidacts are not financial or social but rather built by the schooling system into our minds. This schooling system itself was probably setup to create obedient soldiers and weapons technicians so as to win wars. Can someone please queue Pink Floyd's "Another Brick In The Wall" [1]? [1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YR5ApYxkU-U&feature=fvwrel http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YR5ApYxkU-U&feature=fvwre...
eli_gottlieb 15y ago
Of course, there are also those of us who know what to make, but don't have loads of seed money to build an ecosystem from the ground up...
rayhano 15y ago
Google is full of developers that have proven they have no idea. Therefore hiring an ideas guy makes perfect sense...
- serdary 15y ago
  well said, and even they have some guys w/o titles, just to organize and filter employees' ideas, but still.. (of course if they are still working at google)

by jayliew 15y ago

_sentient 15y ago

I completely agree. Even better, learn to both hack and hustle. That is truly where the magic happens.

zerostar07 15y ago

Sometimes there may be obstacles to what you propose. Being good at networking etc. is basically a performance skill that doesn't just depend on mindset, but also on good looks, race/culture, age, sex, general likability or other external factors. This is not mentioned often, and I might be wrong but I think it is a factor, despite the fact that the startup world presents itself as the ultimate meritocracy.

jayliew 15y ago
People's natural tendency to associate good looks with intelligence, etc. has been documented (IIRC), but I completely disagree that it cannot be overcome if YOU decide you will "fix" it. Example: Sean Stephenson http://timetostand.com/ http://timetostand.com/ (see short video) Not attacking you personally - but anybody, .. anybody at all who gives me that response are basically chickening out. Consider this the opposite problem of "business guy don't want to even learn how to code, give all sorts of reasons". Technical guy don't want to learn how to hustle, give all sorts of reasons. Again, Sean Stephenson.
- zerostar07 15y ago
  Yeah this is not meant to be an excuse at all. But it used to be that code/innovation mattered more than words, PR etc. Certainly the oldest tech companies were of the "build it and they will come" type. If nowadays who you hang around with matters so much, does that mean that information tech has somehow already peaked?
  - Drbble 15y ago
    Well yeah, look at all the hot startups out there. Except for a few orgs at the extreme high end of tech, a YC style startup is a marketing project with basic IT. Dropbox and a couple others might be an exception.
  - jayliew 15y ago
    Customers don't care about your cool technology, they pay you to solve a real problem they have. That has always been the case. If you see a successful company with cool technology, it's because it ALSO solved a real pain the customer had. There's plenty of startups doing "cool stuff" but it doesn't solve a problem, and therefore it doesn't go anywhere. So I'd reframe the question: it's more about solving real problems. If you can solve it with cool new innovation/code, great. I assume the goal we're talking about here is to build a for-profit business.
anigbrowl 15y ago
I was at an academic conference earlier this month, and several of the speakers made affectionate jokes about one of the speakers - how he couldn't shut up, how he was impossibly argumentative, how he was terribly rude, and basically how he was a bit of a troll. And they were right, he was all those things, plus he looked a bit like a frog. Imagine a short frog with glasses, a thick Noo Yawk accent, and the social graces of a falling brick. And yet he was such a persuasive and entertaining speaker than even when I thought he was dead wrong I wanted to hear more and find common ground with him. I liked him even when he was being an ass, and even in cases where I knew he was wrong (eg when he deliberately skipped over some significant issue because it undermined the argument he was making). The things you mention help, but are by no means essential. You don't even need to believe in yourself, as long as you believe sufficiently in your idea.
krschultz 15y ago
I don't think 'good looks' matter as much as 'clean looks'. Shave. Shower. Get a haircut. Despite the 'hoodie chic' look, make sure it's a clean hoodie. Or better yet, wear something nicer. (no, not a suit, but a step up from a hoodie will help people take you seriously). As far as general likeability goes, usually that stems from people either complaining or saying offense things. All of that is under your control.
- ahoyhere 15y ago
  Body posture is more important than actual innate attractiveness. Body posture creates attractiveness.

secretasiandan 15y ago

I think you've entirely missed his point. Note that he says: "It doesn't matter if they understand how to code or not." His main point? "Once they have that reputation as being awesome it will stick around no matter how badly they perform after their initial success" And I totally agree. In fact, after a success the odds are more in your favor. So if you can't succeed again, it calls into question your 'true' level of talent.

jayliew 15y ago
Did Oink fail because of product, or market? If it's product, being technical will help, if it's market, being technical won't help. (edit: to add, the product worked - so it likely wasn't a problem with the product.)
- ralphos 15y ago
  Yes the product worked, but perhaps the product didn't fit the market?
  - jayliew 15y ago
    Which is what I'm guessing as well. Since it's not a product-issue, Kevin's not-coding didn't hurt. Which was the point I was trying to get at. Even if he could code, that wouldn't help solve the market-fit problem.
winterchil 15y ago
There's actually a good reason that you get credit for a long time and that is successes are so rare and valuable that you deserve credit for a long time. The vast majority of these silicon-valley companies are built with investors' money (typically from Venture Capital firms). The VC business model generates outsized returns on a few successful companies which pay for all the failures. Careers and entire funds can swing to success based on the outcome of one company so if you're a founder you deserve that credit. It also means you've returned tons of extra money to investors that pays for all your subsequent losses. Kevin Rose specifically is an interesting case because Digg was not a success for his investors, but her personally did well.

xpose2000 15y ago

I agree with you: "Just because you can't code, doesn't mean you can't build a business - and vice versa - just because you can code, doesn't mean you can build a business." I have worked for start-ups where people told me what to do, and also have my own bootstrapped start-up. I prefer the later. I think it is important to be well rounded in abilities from coding to business development. That way, you can see through people's bullshit a lot easier, and there is plenty of that going around in the industry. Having said that, you can be an ideas person, but those ideas better be successful more times than not. Success five years ago and failures at every turn since does not exactly invoke confidence.

jayliew 15y ago
This is a hits driven business. How many people do you see with a string of successes and zero failures? Kevin has had a few ventures, with varying degree of "success", which is more than most people can say. Consider the statistically typical case: it's complete failure and lost of time, money, and sweat. If you even break even, you're already way above average. So having even just a series of small wins is a big deal (not saying that Kevin's "win" was small - I have no inside info)
- lrobb 15y ago
  Wow... A hits driven business? I had never thought of it like that before, but it makes so much sense and explains so many things... Like why google is willing to pay 1-2 million per developer... But half of the bay area companies on careers.stackoverflow don't offer relocation.
  - dennisgorelik 15y ago
    One of the reasons why companies do not offer relocation is that if person can be lured to move into Bay Area then the same person can be lured to move out of Bay Area.
    - peacemaker 15y ago

ootachi 15y ago

In fact, I'd say you should do more. Stop being a programmer. It's hard to get a job as a developer these days, and it'll all be outsourced to India and China soon anyway. Instead, you should go into sales and marketing.

deleted 15y ago
[deleted]
untog 15y ago
* It's hard to get a job as a developer these days* ...uh, where exactly? Everywhere I know of is crying out for developers. The case for outsourcing is hugely overstated- having your entire development team half the world and a seven hour time difference away is a very real issue.
- ootachi 15y ago
  In the Bay Area. Everyone claims to be crying out for developers, but they reject all the candidates they're presented with, so in practice it's hard to get a job as a developer.
  - untog 15y ago
    I think what you mean to say is "it's hard to get a job as a developer if you're not a good candidate".
    - ootachi 15y ago
      More like "it's hard to get a job as a developer because companies' perceptions of 'good candidates' exclude everybody".
      - tibbon 15y ago
        If you're actually a good developer (and easy person to get along with, not a serial murderer, etc) and in the bay area and can't find a programming gig... I don't know what you're doing wrong. I'm not the best developer in the world, and I practically get offers in just going to bars in SF...

mindcrime 15y ago

"if I build they will come"[1] mentality end up basically degenerating into non-profits or open-source (when their intent was to become the next big for-profit company). I get your point and mostly agree, but just want to stress that "open source" and "for profit" are not mutually exclusive. There are a handful of companies out there making a nice profit specifically by focusing on open source. That said, clearly it (building an "open source company") should be a conscious decision, and you have to understand the subtleties that go along with it.

sanderjd 15y ago

Here's an idea from a non-idea-guy: do for those of us who have no clue how to approach your list of non-technical skills what Codecademy has done for those with no idea how to approach programming. Start us slow, treat us like we know nothing, but give us the chance to prove otherwise. Allow us to work on our own time, and charge us orders of magnitude less than an MBA costs. I would pay for that.

chernevik 15y ago
Probably not doable. Not good at this stuff myself, but at core it seems to be driven by recognition of emotional states and making emotionally intelligent responses. This sort of thing isn't beyond learning -- disciplines like art, music, sports develop the core skills, and we can all become more self-aware. But it doesn't lend itself verbally stated principles.
- sanderjd 15y ago
  Obviously it can't look much like Codecademy and perhaps it is not about verbally stated principles. Maybe the bigger question is: how does the progress that has been made by people using technology to reduce the financial and social barriers to learning technical material translate to learning "softer" material? If we want to eventually live in a world where the university in its current form has been superseded (and I do), someone needs to answer that question. It sounds hard and uncertain but very valuable if successful - a winning combination if you ask me.
  - chefsurfing 15y ago
    I am certain a world full of autodidacts would supersed the university system we see today. For these autodidacts the universe might truly become a "University of Life". I am also certain that the true barriers keeping most people from becoming autodidacts are not financial or social but rather built by the schooling system into our minds. This schooling system itself was probably setup to create obedient soldiers and weapons technicians so as to win wars. Can someone please queue Pink Floyd's "Another Brick In The Wall" [1]? [1] http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YR5ApYxkU-U&feature=fvwrel http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YR5ApYxkU-U&feature=fvwre...

eli_gottlieb 15y ago

Of course, there are also those of us who know what to make, but don't have loads of seed money to build an ecosystem from the ground up...

rayhano 15y ago

Google is full of developers that have proven they have no idea. Therefore hiring an ideas guy makes perfect sense...

serdary 15y ago
well said, and even they have some guys w/o titles, just to organize and filter employees' ideas, but still.. (of course if they are still working at google)