6 ms·

The worry about the doom loop is not that rich people lose money but that the current budget is tied to high tax receipts and when assessments go down tax reven

The worry about the doom loop is not that rich people lose money but that the current budget is tied to high tax receipts and when assessments go down tax revenue will plunge. Services will have to be cut to balance the budget.

mschuster91 3y ago
> Services will have to be cut to balance the budget. No. The US could also go and fix their tax code for once - start taxing the uber rich. Warren f..ing Buffet complained years ago he has to pay less tax than his secretary. A lot of the issues that cripple many Western countries relate to stupid tax breaks for the rich and mega corporations who have bought out politics.
- anonuser123456 3y ago
  Not everyone believes taking Bill Gates’ money and sending it to random drug addicts in SF is very good policy.
  - ipaddr 3y ago
    Bad example as his foundations probably does this through outreach programs
    - Tyrek 3y ago
      Foundations that are probably better run than local government.
      - mschuster91 3y ago
        Which is true but extremely problematic in itself. The poor and destitute should not depend on the graces of billionaires (or, worse, churches) for their basic needs, society should take care of them.
- GenerWork 3y ago
  >The US could also go and fix their tax code for once - start taxing the uber rich. SF is the most liberal city in the most liberal state. They don't have any issues taxing rich people (or any other person, that's for sure).
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- idopmstuff 3y ago
  > The US could also go and fix their tax code for once - start taxing the uber rich. We're talking about a municipality, not the US. Plus your whole point is fine in theory, but it's not going to happen any time in the near future. The question of whether SF is going to get stuck in a doom loop is a real one, and it should be examined through a lens of the social and political environment we're in, not a theoretical and unrealistic one.
- closeparen 3y ago
  The wealth in California is the equity that longtime residents hold in their homes. This is untouchable thanks to Prop 13.
- telotortium 3y ago
  If you want a Sweden-style social democracy, you need to significantly raise taxes on at least the upper quintile (in the US, that's just over $130k - coincidentally, that's around the cutoff for income subject to Social Security tax). But >$130k/year income is most common among the professional-managerial class, which has become a core Democrat constituency, so Democrats will for sure not raise taxes on them - Democrats have already promised not to raise taxes on households making less than $400k. So the US tax code isn't getting fixed anytime soon, unfortunately.
  - rayiner 3y ago
    Sweden also has a 25% VAT.
  - msh 3y ago
    Sweden style democracy only works because everyone is heavily taxed, from poor to rich.
    - cinntaile 3y ago
      Sweden has a higher wealth inequality than the US. Mind you this is different from income inequality.
    - telotortium 3y ago
      Yes, like Rainier says, a VAT would be very helpful to have as well. The US can probably get away with a little less taxation in theory due to having so many PMC high-income earners, but that would depend on the US knowing how to run government services efficiently... My larger point is that Americans are largely under the delusion that heavily taxing the 1% would be enough, which is just not the case.
      - mschuster91 3y ago
        > My larger point is that Americans are largely under the delusion that heavily taxing the 1% would be enough, which is just not the case. 728 people in the US own more assets than half the US population together [1]. Let that fact sink in, and then ask yourself why the fuck no one in the US has taken to the pitchforks yet. At least here in Europe, the lower classes are on serious strike runs the last months - the UK, France and Germany are just examples. You know what, you could leave each of these 728 uber rich people a billion dollar each. Enough money that neither they nor their children and their children have to work a day in their lifes ever. Basically, aristocracy, "landed gentry" or however you want to call it, just legally recognized. The rest of the wealth gets distributed among the population. Easy, isn't it? [1] https://www.snopes.com/news/2023/04/13/728-billionaires-hold-more-wealth/ https://www.snopes.com/news/2023/04/13/728-billionaires-hold...
- rayiner 3y ago
  Define “rich.”
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
mistrial9 3y ago
perhaps that is true in the abstract - but the budget for the City of San Franisco is +$1Billion US dollars Per Year. Add to that, they routinely cheat small business and tourists on money (traffic tickets, multi-year payment terms for services rendered). Thirdly, the largest population group of the City is ethnic Chinese, some of whom are quite good with money.
jschveibinz 3y ago
This.

mschuster91 3y ago

> Services will have to be cut to balance the budget. No. The US could also go and fix their tax code for once - start taxing the uber rich. Warren f..ing Buffet complained years ago he has to pay less tax than his secretary. A lot of the issues that cripple many Western countries relate to stupid tax breaks for the rich and mega corporations who have bought out politics.

anonuser123456 3y ago
Not everyone believes taking Bill Gates’ money and sending it to random drug addicts in SF is very good policy.
- ipaddr 3y ago
  Bad example as his foundations probably does this through outreach programs
  - Tyrek 3y ago
    Foundations that are probably better run than local government.
    - mschuster91 3y ago
      Which is true but extremely problematic in itself. The poor and destitute should not depend on the graces of billionaires (or, worse, churches) for their basic needs, society should take care of them.
GenerWork 3y ago
>The US could also go and fix their tax code for once - start taxing the uber rich. SF is the most liberal city in the most liberal state. They don't have any issues taxing rich people (or any other person, that's for sure).
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
idopmstuff 3y ago
> The US could also go and fix their tax code for once - start taxing the uber rich. We're talking about a municipality, not the US. Plus your whole point is fine in theory, but it's not going to happen any time in the near future. The question of whether SF is going to get stuck in a doom loop is a real one, and it should be examined through a lens of the social and political environment we're in, not a theoretical and unrealistic one.
closeparen 3y ago
The wealth in California is the equity that longtime residents hold in their homes. This is untouchable thanks to Prop 13.
telotortium 3y ago
If you want a Sweden-style social democracy, you need to significantly raise taxes on at least the upper quintile (in the US, that's just over $130k - coincidentally, that's around the cutoff for income subject to Social Security tax). But >$130k/year income is most common among the professional-managerial class, which has become a core Democrat constituency, so Democrats will for sure not raise taxes on them - Democrats have already promised not to raise taxes on households making less than $400k. So the US tax code isn't getting fixed anytime soon, unfortunately.
- rayiner 3y ago
  Sweden also has a 25% VAT.
- msh 3y ago
  Sweden style democracy only works because everyone is heavily taxed, from poor to rich.
  - cinntaile 3y ago
    Sweden has a higher wealth inequality than the US. Mind you this is different from income inequality.
  - telotortium 3y ago
    Yes, like Rainier says, a VAT would be very helpful to have as well. The US can probably get away with a little less taxation in theory due to having so many PMC high-income earners, but that would depend on the US knowing how to run government services efficiently... My larger point is that Americans are largely under the delusion that heavily taxing the 1% would be enough, which is just not the case.
    - mschuster91 3y ago
      > My larger point is that Americans are largely under the delusion that heavily taxing the 1% would be enough, which is just not the case. 728 people in the US own more assets than half the US population together [1]. Let that fact sink in, and then ask yourself why the fuck no one in the US has taken to the pitchforks yet. At least here in Europe, the lower classes are on serious strike runs the last months - the UK, France and Germany are just examples. You know what, you could leave each of these 728 uber rich people a billion dollar each. Enough money that neither they nor their children and their children have to work a day in their lifes ever. Basically, aristocracy, "landed gentry" or however you want to call it, just legally recognized. The rest of the wealth gets distributed among the population. Easy, isn't it? [1] https://www.snopes.com/news/2023/04/13/728-billionaires-hold-more-wealth/ https://www.snopes.com/news/2023/04/13/728-billionaires-hold...
rayiner 3y ago
Define “rich.”
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]

mistrial9 3y ago

perhaps that is true in the abstract - but the budget for the City of San Franisco is +$1Billion US dollars Per Year. Add to that, they routinely cheat small business and tourists on money (traffic tickets, multi-year payment terms for services rendered). Thirdly, the largest population group of the City is ethnic Chinese, some of whom are quite good with money.

jschveibinz 3y ago

This.