5 ms·

This is not cognitive bias. The question is indeed not straightforward because, indeed, society has tended to see 'meat' and 'fish' as two separate categories.

This is not cognitive bias. The question is indeed not straightforward because, indeed, society has tended to see 'meat' and 'fish' as two separate categories. So when Justice Scalia says: " “Of course fish isn’t meat!” he boomed. “Why else do I—and millions of Catholics—eat fish on Fridays during Lent?” ", he is making a legal argument that there is an established precedent in society that 'meat' and 'fish' are understood as different things. By the way, two definitions of 'meat' I quickly found on Google: Oxford Languages: " the flesh of an animal, typically a mammal or bird, as food (the flesh of domestic fowls is sometimes distinguished as poultry ). " Merriam Webster: " animal tissue considered especially as food / flesh of a mammal as opposed to fowl or fish / flesh of domesticated animals " So even dictionaries are not that clear-cut that 'animal' should be understood by is pure biological definition and do say that 'meat' is often to be understood as NOT including fish. Edit: This also illustrates the importance of defining terms in a discussion. A term might have an obvious meaning to me and an equally obvious but different meaning to someone else.

JohnFen 3y ago
> society has tended to see 'meat' and 'fish' as two separate categories. This is the first that I've heard this asserted as a widespread societal thing. That isn't at all my experience in my part of the US. I don't know a single person who would say that fish isn't meat. There are oddball religious stances, but even the Catholics I know don't really consider fish as not being meat. I'm not saying that nobody at all thinks fish isn't meat, but if you were to assert that publicly, the reaction from the vast majority of people around here would be laughter.
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  The only time I heard anyone distinguish fish and meat was when I was in a Catholic high school. I remember specifically thinking what a small sacrifice it was to give up meat (excluding fish and other animal products) for one day of the week for a month.
  - cedilla 3y ago
    This is an ultra low effort version. All Catholics I know give up whatever they give up for every day during Lent. 40 days, not 5 Fridays. And if they avoid meat on Fridays, they do it for every Friday, all year long.
- barbariangrunge 3y ago
  Lots of vegetarians eat fish for some reason
  - charlesabarnes 3y ago
    That would technically be a pescatarian
    - barbariangrunge 3y ago
      They called themselves vegetarians for most of my life, including on tv and in films
- exegete 3y ago
  >even the Catholics I know don't really consider fish as not being meat. It depends on what you mean by “really consider”. For the religious practice they have, they really consider it not as meat. But that’s a different context than scientific discussions or otherwise. Words have their meaning based on context. So in the context of Fridays during Lent, Catholics are not eating meat according to their religious instructions. Outside of that context “meat” may be defined in a different way. Meat can also mean the edible part of fruit.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    > But that’s a different context than scientific discussions or otherwise. This is what I meant. I think we're on the same page here.
- garciasn 3y ago
  There are folks who are vegetarians + fish (they call themselves pescatarians), so there are arguments, even from vegetarians, that fish don't count as meat. I don't know what the right answer is, but my personal opinion is that fish flesh is 'meat'. The law exists to bring finality, in a legal sense, to questions with nebulous answers such as this one.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    Pescatarians don't consider themselves vegetarians, though. They eat primarily vegetarian, and just limit their meat to only seafood. I just don't see how the "is fish meat" question is even a little nebulous, at least in my culture. All but a very tiny percentage of people here, including pescatarians, say it is. But I'm only talking about the culture I'm a part of. I'm not saying that others thing differently. My only point was that, around my neck of the woods, society does not tend to consider fish as not-meat.
    - garciasn 3y ago
      It's great that your personal experience and of those you interact with on the regular can provide your entire society a level of finality in this decision. Here in the US, we generally rely on our judicial system (ending at the Supreme Court) to determine these bounds.
      - JohnFen 3y ago
        I live in the US. > Here in the US, we generally rely on our judicial system (ending at the Supreme Court) to determine these bounds. The judicial system determines definitions that courts (and therefore regulations) use. Those are very often quite different from the definitions that are used outside of court. (As an example: is pizza a sandwich? The courts say "yes") I'm talking about how people use the language, not courts.
    - klyrs 3y ago
      But Catholics have a 6-3 majority on the Supreme court. So perhaps fish isn't meat after all. I was raised to believe in a separation of church and state, and while I still hold dearly to that promise of the first amendment, latter day rulings have convinced me that the constitution is irrelevant when it gets in the way of a unipolar supreme court.
- rufus_foreman 3y ago
  "In prison, dinner was always a big thing. We had a pasta course, and then we had a meat or a fish." -- Goodfellas And Henry wasn't even Catholic anymore at this point.
- mytailorisrich 3y ago
  Perhaps one way to think about it is to imagine you are with a group of friend, it's lunchtime and everyone's hungry then you say "I'm craving meat!". I'm guessing no-one will think you mean you want to eat fish.

JohnFen 3y ago

> society has tended to see 'meat' and 'fish' as two separate categories. This is the first that I've heard this asserted as a widespread societal thing. That isn't at all my experience in my part of the US. I don't know a single person who would say that fish isn't meat. There are oddball religious stances, but even the Catholics I know don't really consider fish as not being meat. I'm not saying that nobody at all thinks fish isn't meat, but if you were to assert that publicly, the reaction from the vast majority of people around here would be laughter.

lotsofpulp 3y ago
The only time I heard anyone distinguish fish and meat was when I was in a Catholic high school. I remember specifically thinking what a small sacrifice it was to give up meat (excluding fish and other animal products) for one day of the week for a month.
- cedilla 3y ago
  This is an ultra low effort version. All Catholics I know give up whatever they give up for every day during Lent. 40 days, not 5 Fridays. And if they avoid meat on Fridays, they do it for every Friday, all year long.
barbariangrunge 3y ago
Lots of vegetarians eat fish for some reason
- charlesabarnes 3y ago
  That would technically be a pescatarian
  - barbariangrunge 3y ago
    They called themselves vegetarians for most of my life, including on tv and in films
exegete 3y ago
>even the Catholics I know don't really consider fish as not being meat. It depends on what you mean by “really consider”. For the religious practice they have, they really consider it not as meat. But that’s a different context than scientific discussions or otherwise. Words have their meaning based on context. So in the context of Fridays during Lent, Catholics are not eating meat according to their religious instructions. Outside of that context “meat” may be defined in a different way. Meat can also mean the edible part of fruit.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  > But that’s a different context than scientific discussions or otherwise. This is what I meant. I think we're on the same page here.
garciasn 3y ago
There are folks who are vegetarians + fish (they call themselves pescatarians), so there are arguments, even from vegetarians, that fish don't count as meat. I don't know what the right answer is, but my personal opinion is that fish flesh is 'meat'. The law exists to bring finality, in a legal sense, to questions with nebulous answers such as this one.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  Pescatarians don't consider themselves vegetarians, though. They eat primarily vegetarian, and just limit their meat to only seafood. I just don't see how the "is fish meat" question is even a little nebulous, at least in my culture. All but a very tiny percentage of people here, including pescatarians, say it is. But I'm only talking about the culture I'm a part of. I'm not saying that others thing differently. My only point was that, around my neck of the woods, society does not tend to consider fish as not-meat.
  - garciasn 3y ago
    It's great that your personal experience and of those you interact with on the regular can provide your entire society a level of finality in this decision. Here in the US, we generally rely on our judicial system (ending at the Supreme Court) to determine these bounds.
    - JohnFen 3y ago
      I live in the US. > Here in the US, we generally rely on our judicial system (ending at the Supreme Court) to determine these bounds. The judicial system determines definitions that courts (and therefore regulations) use. Those are very often quite different from the definitions that are used outside of court. (As an example: is pizza a sandwich? The courts say "yes") I'm talking about how people use the language, not courts.
  - klyrs 3y ago
    But Catholics have a 6-3 majority on the Supreme court. So perhaps fish isn't meat after all. I was raised to believe in a separation of church and state, and while I still hold dearly to that promise of the first amendment, latter day rulings have convinced me that the constitution is irrelevant when it gets in the way of a unipolar supreme court.
rufus_foreman 3y ago
"In prison, dinner was always a big thing. We had a pasta course, and then we had a meat or a fish." -- Goodfellas And Henry wasn't even Catholic anymore at this point.
mytailorisrich 3y ago
Perhaps one way to think about it is to imagine you are with a group of friend, it's lunchtime and everyone's hungry then you say "I'm craving meat!". I'm guessing no-one will think you mean you want to eat fish.