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This may not be helpful, but does an issue arise when a large number of defectors believe they're cooperators? And actually, as katovatzschyn kind of points ou

This may not be helpful, but does an issue arise when a large number of defectors believe they're cooperators? And actually, as katovatzschyn kind of points out, this setup (citizens / military-industrial complex / terrorists) may not actually map very well at all to the cooperator / defector / joker model.

ktizo 15y ago
Or, what happens if cooperators find out about this theory and so decide to act as jokers when they think that defectors are winning, but turn back into cooperators at other times. Also, defectors want the maximum gain for least effort, so can reasonably decide to act as cooperators for the minimum time required to keep their preferred level of sloth going. Jokers could also decide, if they trusted this model, that to increase overall destruction they act always as defectors, as otherwise they are just ushering in a new round of cooperation.
- angersock 15y ago
  Minor quibble on your final point... Jokers achieve greatest absolute destruction when the lifetime of the system is indefinite--you have to have sand castles before you can kick them over. So, it would seem to me that they'd be more likely to become cooperators for the sole purpose of building things back up to burn them down again.
  - ktizo 15y ago
    Good point, though this suggests to me that there might be more than one type of joker; Loki: likes eternal chaos, so fits your model. Ice Giants: likes Ragnarök, so only sleeps or destroys. However, both Loki and the Ice Giants could conceivably decide to act as cooperators if they suspect that there are a large number of defectors who are currently acting as cooperators, with the aim of overwhelming the cooperators by switching back to being jokers when the other fake cooperators switch back to being defectors. [edit] Also, 'Loki and the Ice Giants' would make a really good band name, or possibly a tumblr site (nod to the xkcd enthusiasts).
    - angersock 15y ago
      I like your choice of terms! :) Hm.... Ice Giants would seem to suggest a fourth state, one of pure inactivity. I would almost say that you could model these modes (as the paper does) by changing the damage value to be 0 (dormant, effectively, Ice Giants) for some chosen system conditions. Were you to assign a negative damage, you might be able to model jokers-as-cooperator. The interesting (perhaps most interesting) thing about the Jokers is that they have no stake in the system. So, I wonder how to account/model that in a Jokers-can-become-Coopearators system. Hm.

ktizo 15y ago

Or, what happens if cooperators find out about this theory and so decide to act as jokers when they think that defectors are winning, but turn back into cooperators at other times. Also, defectors want the maximum gain for least effort, so can reasonably decide to act as cooperators for the minimum time required to keep their preferred level of sloth going. Jokers could also decide, if they trusted this model, that to increase overall destruction they act always as defectors, as otherwise they are just ushering in a new round of cooperation.

angersock 15y ago
Minor quibble on your final point... Jokers achieve greatest absolute destruction when the lifetime of the system is indefinite--you have to have sand castles before you can kick them over. So, it would seem to me that they'd be more likely to become cooperators for the sole purpose of building things back up to burn them down again.
- ktizo 15y ago
  Good point, though this suggests to me that there might be more than one type of joker; Loki: likes eternal chaos, so fits your model. Ice Giants: likes Ragnarök, so only sleeps or destroys. However, both Loki and the Ice Giants could conceivably decide to act as cooperators if they suspect that there are a large number of defectors who are currently acting as cooperators, with the aim of overwhelming the cooperators by switching back to being jokers when the other fake cooperators switch back to being defectors. [edit] Also, 'Loki and the Ice Giants' would make a really good band name, or possibly a tumblr site (nod to the xkcd enthusiasts).
  - angersock 15y ago
    I like your choice of terms! :) Hm.... Ice Giants would seem to suggest a fourth state, one of pure inactivity. I would almost say that you could model these modes (as the paper does) by changing the damage value to be 0 (dormant, effectively, Ice Giants) for some chosen system conditions. Were you to assign a negative damage, you might be able to model jokers-as-cooperator. The interesting (perhaps most interesting) thing about the Jokers is that they have no stake in the system. So, I wonder how to account/model that in a Jokers-can-become-Coopearators system. Hm.