3 ms·

Even as someone sincerely interested in psychology as serious science, I’m not really comfortable with the idea[0] of therapy—I assume mental health treatment i

Even as someone sincerely interested in psychology as serious science, I’m not really comfortable with the idea[0] of therapy—I assume mental health treatment is what’s usually meant by “therapy”?—especially if it implies that somebody can just “tell” me what my “subconscious” is “feeling” and expect me to take that at face value. 1) A prospect of looking for a person I can trust is quite daunting if it necessarily involves sharing sensitive things with those I wouldn’t trust once I get to know them. If you have the money and the confidence required to share very personal things with four different psychiatrists, it may work for you—it doesn’t seem likely to for me. 2) Knowing my own dislike for pseudo- or cargo cult science, I foresee how we would have to spend a lot of time diving into the “why” underlying every point, and I know from experience how it’s awkward (not to mention a waste of money and time) when you have done your own research and start noticing that a professional, in fact, (A) doesn’t know something and (B) unable to admit it and do more research (made worse if that person (C) charges by the hour). Really, I can get on board with the idea of someone telling me that I’m in denial and me snapping out of it, but assuming I can’t acknowledge that when my friends say so why would I suddenly believe a person who knows me much less and, no offence, for all I know may well be making a living doing something not very far removed from fortune telling? Long story short, it’s likely a Bad Idea(tm) to take these matters into your own hands[0], but I instead try to educate myself on the fundamentals by reading books. Among my recent findings on this topic is Iain McGilchrist’s The Master and His Emissary, if the above resonates with you may like it too (though I’ve only recently started it, not yet halfway through). Iain is, no surprise, a psychiatrist, but with a huge lean towards neuroscience, which is a good combination that to me makes for an interesting/palatable read. Being more or less the opposite of a self-help book, it builds on analysis of fairly hardcore well-sourced research and so far I feel enabled to make my own conclusions as to how it may (or may not, yet to be seen) apply to my psychological balance (slash lack thereof). [0] Of course, this should go with a big red warning label that *I have not tried therapy* (yet?). Don’t listen to me, probably.

tveita 3y ago
It might be a helpful framing to think of handling emotions and dealing with adversity as life skills, like cooking. There isn't one single "correct" way to cook. Most people pick up some cooking skills naturally as they grow up - from family, from friends, through reading books or TV shows. But some people grow up with parents who are bad at cooking, in an environment where most people don't cook, and they will themselves be bad at cooking as adults. If they realize that later, "How come all my friends talk about cooking rice like it's no big deal", they might benefit from taking a cooking class, or sitting down and reading a basic cookbook. It could be a "food science" book that tells you the chemistry of Maillard reaction, but it doesn't have to be. The important thing is to try out different ways to cook than what you're used to, guided by someone who is good at cooking. That will be more effective that sitting down and trying to rediscover how to make an omelette from scratch. Most people are getting by with their normal cooking skills, but everyone who could probably discover some ways to improve by watching a cooking show, or taking a cooking class. We could consider teaching more cooking in school to make sure everyone knows some minimum amount of cooking to get by in life.
- strogonoff 3y ago
  Nice analogy, and there’s similarity between cooking and mental health care in how either can probably be explained quite formally at low levels, but the rabbit hole is so deep that to get any real-life utility in reasonable timeframe it seems like you just have to give up theory and follow some guidance or recipes. Which I don’t mind, generally (discovering and applying meditation or other therapy techniques). What I mind about typical “therapy” as described here is that consulting someone, unlike with cooking, seems to require disclosing a lot about yourself to a person whom you probably don’t have enough information to determine the skill and depth of until after that disclosure has happened. Plus, I suspect if you become sufficiently interested in how cooking works, you are not going to be satisfied by recipes or just-so advice. You’d be curious to know the why.
  - rzmmm 3y ago
    One alternative viewpoint for understanding why therapy is so effective for mental health issues, goes as follows: Humans evolved in closely knit groups, where social relationships were extremely important. Good, close friendships were essential for survival. Humans evolved to innately feel better, when they feel that they have formed a close bond with another person. Common Factors Theory posits that successful psychotherapy needs: alliance, empathy, genuineness, affirmation... The school of the psychotherapist is not relevant(!), it's much more important that the patient and therapists are a "good match". Having this viewpoint makes psychotherapy more understandable, and also explains why depressed people can't just read psychotherapy books and self-heal.
    - strogonoff 3y ago
      As a counter-example, one can read sources that provide logically coherent reasoning/research into how humans require human interaction and “self-heal” by exposing oneself to more of it. Which, in fact, I have done and I do. (I am also somewhat fond of the “recursion” theory of self-awareness, in which modeling humans around us requires us to create a model of ourselves within their model, and which more or less requires other humans for human consciousness as it is generally understood to even occur.)
zealtrace 3y ago
You could do a lot of good therapy around your boundaries of disclosing vulnerable information with a stranger. A good therapist, and the right therapist for you, would support you in not disclosing more than you’re comfortable with. The cargo cult science part was and is a big concern of mine as well. In practice it hasn’t been much of an issue. Yoga or music is another analogy for this — the theory isn’t nearly as important as the experience, and a lot of this eventually comes down to something more like practice and intuition rather than theoretical models.

tveita 3y ago

It might be a helpful framing to think of handling emotions and dealing with adversity as life skills, like cooking. There isn't one single "correct" way to cook. Most people pick up some cooking skills naturally as they grow up - from family, from friends, through reading books or TV shows. But some people grow up with parents who are bad at cooking, in an environment where most people don't cook, and they will themselves be bad at cooking as adults. If they realize that later, "How come all my friends talk about cooking rice like it's no big deal", they might benefit from taking a cooking class, or sitting down and reading a basic cookbook. It could be a "food science" book that tells you the chemistry of Maillard reaction, but it doesn't have to be. The important thing is to try out different ways to cook than what you're used to, guided by someone who is good at cooking. That will be more effective that sitting down and trying to rediscover how to make an omelette from scratch. Most people are getting by with their normal cooking skills, but everyone who could probably discover some ways to improve by watching a cooking show, or taking a cooking class. We could consider teaching more cooking in school to make sure everyone knows some minimum amount of cooking to get by in life.

strogonoff 3y ago
Nice analogy, and there’s similarity between cooking and mental health care in how either can probably be explained quite formally at low levels, but the rabbit hole is so deep that to get any real-life utility in reasonable timeframe it seems like you just have to give up theory and follow some guidance or recipes. Which I don’t mind, generally (discovering and applying meditation or other therapy techniques). What I mind about typical “therapy” as described here is that consulting someone, unlike with cooking, seems to require disclosing a lot about yourself to a person whom you probably don’t have enough information to determine the skill and depth of until after that disclosure has happened. Plus, I suspect if you become sufficiently interested in how cooking works, you are not going to be satisfied by recipes or just-so advice. You’d be curious to know the why.
- rzmmm 3y ago
  One alternative viewpoint for understanding why therapy is so effective for mental health issues, goes as follows: Humans evolved in closely knit groups, where social relationships were extremely important. Good, close friendships were essential for survival. Humans evolved to innately feel better, when they feel that they have formed a close bond with another person. Common Factors Theory posits that successful psychotherapy needs: alliance, empathy, genuineness, affirmation... The school of the psychotherapist is not relevant(!), it's much more important that the patient and therapists are a "good match". Having this viewpoint makes psychotherapy more understandable, and also explains why depressed people can't just read psychotherapy books and self-heal.
  - strogonoff 3y ago
    As a counter-example, one can read sources that provide logically coherent reasoning/research into how humans require human interaction and “self-heal” by exposing oneself to more of it. Which, in fact, I have done and I do. (I am also somewhat fond of the “recursion” theory of self-awareness, in which modeling humans around us requires us to create a model of ourselves within their model, and which more or less requires other humans for human consciousness as it is generally understood to even occur.)

zealtrace 3y ago

You could do a lot of good therapy around your boundaries of disclosing vulnerable information with a stranger. A good therapist, and the right therapist for you, would support you in not disclosing more than you’re comfortable with. The cargo cult science part was and is a big concern of mine as well. In practice it hasn’t been much of an issue. Yoga or music is another analogy for this — the theory isn’t nearly as important as the experience, and a lot of this eventually comes down to something more like practice and intuition rather than theoretical models.