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Ask HN: _How to get past “saving face” or other cultural differences?
Hey all,
I'm trying not to turn this into a culture war, please let me know how to be respectful about this topic.
How does one get past the "saving face" or obedience / Confucius mindset on software teams? Have other people experienced this issue below?
Picture a scene:
* We have a critical bit of work that needs to get done, make a current implementation of something work with new data-types. ASAP, it's quoted to be 2 days work roughly (i eventually took it over and got it done, so it is around that size.)
* Current implementation is a boiled down, maybe "non-intuitive" version. (It's to deal with money amounts, and with a bit of maths, you can figure it one way quicker than the brute-force/naive implementation).
* We give the work to team-mate who says "yes i get it" to the problem, and "yes i get it" to the solution / implementation that we need to change. "do you understand why we do it this way?" - "yes"
* 2 weeks pass, for what is meant to be a 2 day change - he's spinning wheels. adding little changes to 3000 tests trying to make all the tests work to whatever his version is. getting stuck in the debugger for tests, not understanding what the tests are trying to do, etc, not understanding why the tests aren't working. getting frustrated.
* i take it over, 3-4 changes at the right place makes all tests pass and implementation good to go.
* he won't admit that he didn't understand it, because it makes him sound dumb (his word). He understood, but he understood his version, which was different to reality (this is how he explained it). -- any further "ok, that's acceptable, how do we test our assumptions against reality?" causes him to worry and get upset, and walk it back "no i did actually understand it." - there's a notion of "saving face" here because he doesn't want to be the person who didn't know this.
* There's also no answer to "why don't we just delete the code? why do we have this code in the first place?"
* After a short whiteboard session, he does understand it. it clicks for him, he know how we do it, but still agrees that he would do it the brute force way because that is more easily understood by looking at the code at first glance.
We have a debrief:
"did you learn something from this whiteboard session?"
"yes, i've said that multiple times, it was good!"
"does that mean you got something new from it?"
"yes"
"... to get something new, it means that you didn't have that knowledge before the whiteboard session, right?"
"... no. perhaps that is an overstatement, i already understood everything, but this was good overview."
We try to encourage an open "no stupid questions" mindset across the team, and everyone for the most part gets it. We find it acceptable for people to not even understand the tests they wrote 6 months ago (because we have a big problem domain so naturally people forget) - but this is a case where the person needs to be comfortable with the notion that they don't understand something..
I've had Chinese friends talk about saving face culture (not to look bad) and the Confucius / cram-schooling /copy-the-master methodology in China and other communist countries: the master knows all. if you don't understand it, you will fail/be beaten, so you must understand and don't question the master.
If teammembers don't feel comfortable saying they don't understand, they won't get help to unblock them, and so work slows down. I don't feel like it came from our team, this has to be more the cultural aspects at play, like looking at the code like a master, rather than having mastery over the code itself.
Has anyone had similar?
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- hqsolomo 3y agoNot an expert on this but I've both seen it and done it: fear of punishment for asking for help/admitting weakness was why I did it. I've had a boss that used our team as his scapegoat to cover his ass whenever he fucked up. When I was fresh out of college at my first real job said boss fucked up his budgeting and blamed us for being unproductive. I offered to work extra to get us back on track and while I was successful... The fact that the project went way over budget and that only 3 people on a 16 person team was at 100% utilization made it to senior management (who was responsible for assigning out work? The boss). Guess who got thrown under the bus for it? It was eventually sorted out but that was the most miserable week of my career at the time wondering if I was seriously about to be fired for sacrificing my time to help on a project that wasn't even mine. Ever since that I made it a point to get between "bosses" and my teammates to try and prevent anyone else from going through the hell I went through until I finally left that job. Flash forward some years, a colleague missed a key deadline and I wasn't as aggressive about offering assistance as I really should have been. When leadership came knocking I had to fight the urge to defend myself and openly admitted my mistake, because although it wasn't my task to do the work it WAS my responsibility to see it through and I was the one accountable for it. My logic was "just as it felt shitty to get blamed for something I didn't do, I refuse to let someone else take the fall in my place. Give me liberty or give me death." It stung and it stung hard. I got absolutely no reward for the honesty and got reprimanded anyway- lost half my bonus, skipped over for senior even though I had the same responsibilities as the seniors, and didn't get a merit raise that year or the year after- but I felt good for sticking to my beliefs even when the only outcome was punishment. It was even more amplified when that same coworker went on to become an analyst and later a product owner years after the incident, showing growth and confidence that may not have been realized had I thrown them under the bus like my boss did to me all those years ago. I think this is 100% a leadership problem. If the guys at the top are too afraid to take their whooping like a man how can they expect the grunts to do it? If leadership won't formally implement a "no stupid questions" policy what do they think their staff is going to do when they NEED to ask a "stupid question?" Nobody needs to lie to cover their asses if their asses aren't at risk just for being human, but (on the US, at least) many walk on eggshells to avoid being the goose/gray duck in a sea of ducks/not-gray ducks.