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Are they "experiencing" homelessness or are they "experiencing" unchecked mental health issues and addiction? Perhaps, counting homes isn't useful here.

dragonwriter 3y ago
> Are they “experiencing” homelessness Yes. > or are they “experiencing” unchecked mental health issues and addiction? Some are also experiencing that, as are some people who are not homeless. Yes, those problems reinforce each other, and not dealing with either makes the other more difficult to deal with where they co-occur. Behavioral health support is for a large segment of the affected population an important part of dealing with homeless, and housing is an important component of dealing with a significant set of behavioral health issues. They aren’t mutually exclusive problems, nor is addressing one exclusive of addressing the other.
- thegrim33 3y ago
  I've lived in multiple places in downtown Seattle for the last ~15 years and I can count on one hand the number of homeless people I've seen during that time that aren't either completely drugged out or without serious mental health issues. It's, in my first-hand experience, the overwhelmingly top deciding factor in their situation. Homeless advocates like to paint this pretty (propaganda) picture of people that, shucks, are just down on their luck, shucks, their rent went up and now they're homeless and if only we gave them (steal from others) some money or a house or whatever, that'll be the help they need to get back on their feet. The vast, vast, majority of the current homeless population will just destroy the house and then move on whenever they're eventually kicked out.
  - crooked-v 3y ago
    > homeless people I've seen There's the confirmation bias right there. You aren't "seeing" the people who are homeless but don't have other issues going on, because they can take more care of themselves and so look "normal".
- akira2501 3y ago
  > and housing is an important component of dealing with a significant set of behavioral health issues. Why? Or more appropriately, do you have a reference to backup this assertion?
  - gremlinsinc 3y ago
    if you lost your home tomorrow and had to live on the street, even without turning to alcohol would your mental state be happy and enthusiastic or depressed?
    - akira2501 3y ago
      So.. we're back to the beginning. Did they lose the home and turn to drugs, or did drugs eventually lead them to a place where they couldn't keep their home? If it's the latter, then simply gifting them a home changes nothing. Further.. you're suggesting that without a home people _cannot possibly be mentally healthy_ and will ultimately be forced into alcohol or drugs. Do you really believe that? And again, if so, why do you believe this and did it come from some particular source?
      - dragonwriter 3y ago
        > So.. we’re back to the beginning. Did they lose the home and turn to drugs, or did drugs eventually lead them to a place where they couldn’t keep their home? Ultimately, it doesn’t matter. The systems problem of what is causing their current problems is often more involved and more complex than the historical question of what was the root cause (or were the root causes) of their current situation. > If it’s the latter, then simply gifting them a home changes nothing. In software (as long as its not self-modifying), the root cause(s) of an incorrect behavior are also, pretty much by definition, exactly the things you need to fix to achieve the correct behavior. With systems where problems change the the system, the cause or causes that the problems trace back to in time doesn’t necessarily tell you anything about what you need to do to resolve the problems that are currently present. its true that “simply gifting them a home” (or “simply gifting them behavioral health treatment service, on the other side) isn’t going to solve the problem with co-occurring homeless and behavioral health (mental health and/or substance use disorder) problems. But the degree to which each of those is true does not depend on which problem is the historical antecedent of the other. Homelessness doesn’t stop being a complication to behavioral health treatment because the behavioral health problem occurred first and caused the homelessness, and behavioral health problems don’t stop being a complication in addressing homelessness because the homelessness occurred first and created the behavioral health problems (and those are all true combinatorially if you throw in the physical health problems that are also likely co-occurring, which may either have preceded, or been caused by, or in part each, the homelessness and/or behavioral health problems.) There are domains where “what came first” is the key question to ask in solving a mixture of current problems, but that’s not generally the case, and its not specifically the case with the kinds of problems at issue in this thread. > Further.. you’re suggesting that without a home people _cannot possibly be mentally healthy_ and will ultimately be forced into alcohol or drugs. Do you really believe that? No one said that; looks like a strawman.
housemusicfan 3y ago
"People experiencing homelessness" is a dog whistle used by the homeless industrial complex [1] to distract from the reality and root causes of the situation. In Seattle, warring groups of vagrants are bombing each others' camps with explosives. [2] Do not adjust your sets ladies and gentlemen, this isn't a news story from Beirut in the 80s. Anyone that thinks that a warm shower and free apartment is going to solve this problem is delusional. These people do not want help and actively refuse it. These are the harsh facts. [1] The large network of grifters and organizations that continue to profit off this human suffering, under the guise of providing help. Instead they secure themselves and their friends cushy jobs and squander millions of dollars while the problem continues to fester and destroy their city. [2] https://komonews.com/news/local/seattle-homeless-crisis-multiple-explosive-devices-used-in-bombing-at-fentanyl-tent-encampment-harborview-medical-center-hospital-police-drug-trafficking-drugs-dealers-king-county-washington-state https://komonews.com/news/local/seattle-homeless-crisis-mult...

dragonwriter 3y ago

> Are they “experiencing” homelessness Yes. > or are they “experiencing” unchecked mental health issues and addiction? Some are also experiencing that, as are some people who are not homeless. Yes, those problems reinforce each other, and not dealing with either makes the other more difficult to deal with where they co-occur. Behavioral health support is for a large segment of the affected population an important part of dealing with homeless, and housing is an important component of dealing with a significant set of behavioral health issues. They aren’t mutually exclusive problems, nor is addressing one exclusive of addressing the other.

thegrim33 3y ago
I've lived in multiple places in downtown Seattle for the last ~15 years and I can count on one hand the number of homeless people I've seen during that time that aren't either completely drugged out or without serious mental health issues. It's, in my first-hand experience, the overwhelmingly top deciding factor in their situation. Homeless advocates like to paint this pretty (propaganda) picture of people that, shucks, are just down on their luck, shucks, their rent went up and now they're homeless and if only we gave them (steal from others) some money or a house or whatever, that'll be the help they need to get back on their feet. The vast, vast, majority of the current homeless population will just destroy the house and then move on whenever they're eventually kicked out.
- crooked-v 3y ago
  > homeless people I've seen There's the confirmation bias right there. You aren't "seeing" the people who are homeless but don't have other issues going on, because they can take more care of themselves and so look "normal".
akira2501 3y ago
> and housing is an important component of dealing with a significant set of behavioral health issues. Why? Or more appropriately, do you have a reference to backup this assertion?
- gremlinsinc 3y ago
  if you lost your home tomorrow and had to live on the street, even without turning to alcohol would your mental state be happy and enthusiastic or depressed?
  - akira2501 3y ago
    So.. we're back to the beginning. Did they lose the home and turn to drugs, or did drugs eventually lead them to a place where they couldn't keep their home? If it's the latter, then simply gifting them a home changes nothing. Further.. you're suggesting that without a home people _cannot possibly be mentally healthy_ and will ultimately be forced into alcohol or drugs. Do you really believe that? And again, if so, why do you believe this and did it come from some particular source?
    - dragonwriter 3y ago
      > So.. we’re back to the beginning. Did they lose the home and turn to drugs, or did drugs eventually lead them to a place where they couldn’t keep their home? Ultimately, it doesn’t matter. The systems problem of what is causing their current problems is often more involved and more complex than the historical question of what was the root cause (or were the root causes) of their current situation. > If it’s the latter, then simply gifting them a home changes nothing. In software (as long as its not self-modifying), the root cause(s) of an incorrect behavior are also, pretty much by definition, exactly the things you need to fix to achieve the correct behavior. With systems where problems change the the system, the cause or causes that the problems trace back to in time doesn’t necessarily tell you anything about what you need to do to resolve the problems that are currently present. its true that “simply gifting them a home” (or “simply gifting them behavioral health treatment service, on the other side) isn’t going to solve the problem with co-occurring homeless and behavioral health (mental health and/or substance use disorder) problems. But the degree to which each of those is true does not depend on which problem is the historical antecedent of the other. Homelessness doesn’t stop being a complication to behavioral health treatment because the behavioral health problem occurred first and caused the homelessness, and behavioral health problems don’t stop being a complication in addressing homelessness because the homelessness occurred first and created the behavioral health problems (and those are all true combinatorially if you throw in the physical health problems that are also likely co-occurring, which may either have preceded, or been caused by, or in part each, the homelessness and/or behavioral health problems.) There are domains where “what came first” is the key question to ask in solving a mixture of current problems, but that’s not generally the case, and its not specifically the case with the kinds of problems at issue in this thread. > Further.. you’re suggesting that without a home people _cannot possibly be mentally healthy_ and will ultimately be forced into alcohol or drugs. Do you really believe that? No one said that; looks like a strawman.

housemusicfan 3y ago

"People experiencing homelessness" is a dog whistle used by the homeless industrial complex [1] to distract from the reality and root causes of the situation. In Seattle, warring groups of vagrants are bombing each others' camps with explosives. [2] Do not adjust your sets ladies and gentlemen, this isn't a news story from Beirut in the 80s. Anyone that thinks that a warm shower and free apartment is going to solve this problem is delusional. These people do not want help and actively refuse it. These are the harsh facts. [1] The large network of grifters and organizations that continue to profit off this human suffering, under the guise of providing help. Instead they secure themselves and their friends cushy jobs and squander millions of dollars while the problem continues to fester and destroy their city. [2] https://komonews.com/news/local/seattle-homeless-crisis-multiple-explosive-devices-used-in-bombing-at-fentanyl-tent-encampment-harborview-medical-center-hospital-police-drug-trafficking-drugs-dealers-king-county-washington-state https://komonews.com/news/local/seattle-homeless-crisis-mult...