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The 2022 Inflation Reduction Act has provisions where low-income households can get an electric or electric induction stove fully reimbursed, up to $840. Middle

The 2022 Inflation Reduction Act has provisions where low-income households can get an electric or electric induction stove fully reimbursed, up to $840. Middle-income households can get half the price of the stove reimbursed. Apparently, individual states have to do stuff, so it might be like the medicaid expansions where some states opt out of providing stuff for poor people to make a political point.

thegaulofthem 3y ago
> opt out of providing stuff for poor people to make a political point. I would certainly hope my state isn’t giving out tax-payer funded luxury stoves. There is no such thing as “free” here.
- arcticbull 3y ago
  My Bosch 36" mid-range induction cook top was about $2500. High-end ones are like $4000-8000 or even more. So nobody's getting a luxury anything for $850.
  - nuancebydefault 3y ago
    I really do not get this. We have twice a 300 euros AEG in two kitchens already running 10 years. How many pits do you cook on simultaneously?
    - arcticbull 3y ago
      Mine has 2 round elements and one rectangular flex element. Generally 1-2.
    - mcpackieh 3y ago
      One for simmering sauce, one for boiling pasta, and a third for frying up some sausage, veggies, etc. Three at a time isn't unreasonable if you know how long everything takes and do it in parallel to all finish at the same time.
      - nuancebydefault 3y ago
        Mine is very similar to [0]. We use 4 pits max, which i think is comfortable. 7kW combined, it does a kind of qos when you set all pits to max power, which works out just fine. It has pause/resume and a countdown timer per pit that works intuitively. I would say the price is not a holding back factor. That's why I really do not get what people in this thread are talking about. [0] https://www.eldi.be/nl/aeg-ikb64301xb-inductie-kookplaat https://www.eldi.be/nl/aeg-ikb64301xb-inductie-kookplaat
  - MandieD 3y ago
    One of the few durable consumer goods that is a lot cheaper in Germany: a new 60cm (24”) Bosch induction range is about 800 EUR. 80cm ones are also available, but I wasn’t looking at them, as 60cm works better with our existing kitchen, though I doubt they start at 2500 EUR.
arcticbull 3y ago
Off-topic but I just don't get why we means-test this. So what if 1% of Americans get $840 so long as the other 99% also get $840 towards a new stove. Surely the cost of means testing and administration is more than 1%?
- delecti 3y ago
  I think you're totally correct. Unfortunately, lots of people have trouble thinking rationally about people getting things they don't deserve (for whatever definition of "deserve").
- s1artibartfast 3y ago
  I don't understand the math that you're doing. 10% of Americans qualify as low income. We're talking about 31 billion to replace the stoves for every low income person and 310 billion dollars to replace the stoves for everyone. Do you really think that means testing cost $280 billion dollars? That's more money than the entire state budget for every state but California. On the flip side, do you think looking at a single tax return for 10 seconds cost more than $840?
  - RheingoldRiver 3y ago
    > do you think looking at a single tax return for 10 seconds cost more than $840? This isn't the real cost. The real cost is when people turn down promotions at work or new jobs because it puts them 2,000 above the poverty line, and they no longer qualify for subsidies. That means that in 10 years they cannot become comfortably middle class after another 3 promotions or new jobs.
    - s1artibartfast 3y ago
      That's why we shouldn't have welfare cliffs. Earning 1 more dollar should never incur 2 dollars of benefit loss. That's an argument against hard cut offs and having benefits as a linear function of income. I wholeheartedly agree that welfare cliffs are one of the most problematic elements of US subsidies. They punish people for bettering their situation and being more independent. Any help should gradually Fade Out and provide an incentive for earning more.
tzs 3y ago
So far I believe only one state has opted out, Florida. It's not really comparable to opting out of expanded Medicaid because at least with expanded Medicaid a state could make a somewhat colorable non-political argument for not participating. Under the ACA Medicaid expansion the federal government covered 90% of the cost and the state covered 10% of the cost. I believe some of the states claimed that they could not afford that 10%. With the energy efficiency rebates under the Inflation Reduction Act (IRA) and the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law (BIL) each state has to administer the rebates for that state's consumers, but the allows the states to use a portion of their gran for for the cost of that, including hiring staff. So basically a state just has to apply, get the administrative money to cover setting up a program to distribute the rebates, then get their share of the IRA and BIL money and distribute it. In Florida deSantis used his veto to block authorization for the state to get and use the $5 million portion of their grant that would be for administration and so Florida residents will not be getting the $174 million in energy efficiency improvement rebates, or the $173 million in appliance rebates, or the $7 million for a training program for electrification contracts, or other smaller grants from those laws. All in all, Florida is turning down $377 million. deSantis has not given a reason, but it is likely part of his "Fight Back Against the Woke Agenda" theme he's basing his campaign on. Reducing emissions and increasing energy efficiency is "woke" in current far right circle. Other recent actions taken in his fight against "woke"ness are tax breaks for purchasing gas stoves and killing a bill that would have directed state agencies to consider lifetime cost of ownership when purchasing cars.

thegaulofthem 3y ago

> opt out of providing stuff for poor people to make a political point. I would certainly hope my state isn’t giving out tax-payer funded luxury stoves. There is no such thing as “free” here.

arcticbull 3y ago
My Bosch 36" mid-range induction cook top was about $2500. High-end ones are like $4000-8000 or even more. So nobody's getting a luxury anything for $850.
- nuancebydefault 3y ago
  I really do not get this. We have twice a 300 euros AEG in two kitchens already running 10 years. How many pits do you cook on simultaneously?
  - arcticbull 3y ago
    Mine has 2 round elements and one rectangular flex element. Generally 1-2.
  - mcpackieh 3y ago
    One for simmering sauce, one for boiling pasta, and a third for frying up some sausage, veggies, etc. Three at a time isn't unreasonable if you know how long everything takes and do it in parallel to all finish at the same time.
    - nuancebydefault 3y ago
      Mine is very similar to [0]. We use 4 pits max, which i think is comfortable. 7kW combined, it does a kind of qos when you set all pits to max power, which works out just fine. It has pause/resume and a countdown timer per pit that works intuitively. I would say the price is not a holding back factor. That's why I really do not get what people in this thread are talking about. [0] https://www.eldi.be/nl/aeg-ikb64301xb-inductie-kookplaat https://www.eldi.be/nl/aeg-ikb64301xb-inductie-kookplaat
- MandieD 3y ago
  One of the few durable consumer goods that is a lot cheaper in Germany: a new 60cm (24”) Bosch induction range is about 800 EUR. 80cm ones are also available, but I wasn’t looking at them, as 60cm works better with our existing kitchen, though I doubt they start at 2500 EUR.

arcticbull 3y ago

Off-topic but I just don't get why we means-test this. So what if 1% of Americans get $840 so long as the other 99% also get $840 towards a new stove. Surely the cost of means testing and administration is more than 1%?

delecti 3y ago
I think you're totally correct. Unfortunately, lots of people have trouble thinking rationally about people getting things they don't deserve (for whatever definition of "deserve").
s1artibartfast 3y ago
I don't understand the math that you're doing. 10% of Americans qualify as low income. We're talking about 31 billion to replace the stoves for every low income person and 310 billion dollars to replace the stoves for everyone. Do you really think that means testing cost $280 billion dollars? That's more money than the entire state budget for every state but California. On the flip side, do you think looking at a single tax return for 10 seconds cost more than $840?
- RheingoldRiver 3y ago
  > do you think looking at a single tax return for 10 seconds cost more than $840? This isn't the real cost. The real cost is when people turn down promotions at work or new jobs because it puts them 2,000 above the poverty line, and they no longer qualify for subsidies. That means that in 10 years they cannot become comfortably middle class after another 3 promotions or new jobs.
  - s1artibartfast 3y ago
    That's why we shouldn't have welfare cliffs. Earning 1 more dollar should never incur 2 dollars of benefit loss. That's an argument against hard cut offs and having benefits as a linear function of income. I wholeheartedly agree that welfare cliffs are one of the most problematic elements of US subsidies. They punish people for bettering their situation and being more independent. Any help should gradually Fade Out and provide an incentive for earning more.

tzs 3y ago

So far I believe only one state has opted out, Florida. It's not really comparable to opting out of expanded Medicaid because at least with expanded Medicaid a state could make a somewhat colorable non-political argument for not participating. Under the ACA Medicaid expansion the federal government covered 90% of the cost and the state covered 10% of the cost. I believe some of the states claimed that they could not afford that 10%. With the energy efficiency rebates under the Inflation Reduction Act (IRA) and the Bipartisan Infrastructure Law (BIL) each state has to administer the rebates for that state's consumers, but the allows the states to use a portion of their gran for for the cost of that, including hiring staff. So basically a state just has to apply, get the administrative money to cover setting up a program to distribute the rebates, then get their share of the IRA and BIL money and distribute it. In Florida deSantis used his veto to block authorization for the state to get and use the $5 million portion of their grant that would be for administration and so Florida residents will not be getting the $174 million in energy efficiency improvement rebates, or the $173 million in appliance rebates, or the $7 million for a training program for electrification contracts, or other smaller grants from those laws. All in all, Florida is turning down $377 million. deSantis has not given a reason, but it is likely part of his "Fight Back Against the Woke Agenda" theme he's basing his campaign on. Reducing emissions and increasing energy efficiency is "woke" in current far right circle. Other recent actions taken in his fight against "woke"ness are tax breaks for purchasing gas stoves and killing a bill that would have directed state agencies to consider lifetime cost of ownership when purchasing cars.