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Where do you draw the line? I don't know anyone that wants to go back to paper maps for navigation. And backup cameras are unambiguously good for everyone.

JohnFen 3y ago
Going back to paper maps isn't the alternative. I already have a device with me that can do all of the navigation, etc., that I'd need. None of that needs to be built into the car. Backup cameras are fine. The only fancy thing I would like to have in my car is the ability to connect the sound system in it to my phone or computer via bluetooth as if it were headphones -- but I can add that easily as an aftermarket thing with the bonus of having actual knobs on it. I really only have two reasonably hard lines. I don't want my car to be able to talk with any external servers (it's a car, not a smartphone on wheels), and I don't want a touch screen interface instead of physical knobs and buttons. The presence of infotainment systems is a pretty solid indication that the car won't satisfy either of those things.
- Zetice 3y ago
  Why wouldn’t you want a cleaner UI and larger screen to show you the contents of that device? Also why do you care if your car has a computer on it or not? Seems overly paranoid, bordering on luddite…
  - solarmist 3y ago
    I agree with him about the car talking to an external server. That is a disgusting grab by car manufacturers. For me, I don't care about my car having a computer, but I don't want it to talk to services without my permission and building their own thing shows a disregard for that desire. I love CarPlay/android and not offering those two most popular options doubles down on that disregard for customer interests.
    - Zetice 3y ago
      Fully agree re: CarPlay/Android Auto support. But the default of "privacy good at all cost" seems like massive overkill IMO. If there's specific evidence that a car is doing something that will specifically cause you harm in some way via data sharing, that's one thing. If it's a vague, general distrust, that falls into the "luddite paranoia" category.
      - solarmist 3y ago
        No it's not that. It's that I believe they will be profit seeking with that data unless forced to be otherwise. The last decade has worn out my optimism and tolerance about privacy concerns. If a company wants my trust, they have to proactively earn it by excessive transparency, at least GDPR level, on their part. If they can do that, I’ll consider it; otherwise, no thank you.
        Zetice 3y ago
        Why is profiting from data collection considered de jure bad? Why does collecting data cost your trust, and why does not collecting data earn your trust?
      - JohnFen 3y ago
        > If it's a vague, general distrust There's nothing vague or general about it. We have years of examples of how such data gets used. You may be fine with that, and that's OK. I don't understand why you get so upset that others aren't fine with it, though. Why is this so emotional for you?
        Zetice 3y ago
        Nothing emotional in what I write, just pointing out that you have precisely zero examples of how shared data from your car has been used to harm you specifically. It's not about what I'm fine with or not, it's about what you're posting on HN in advocacy of. You claim "years of examples" but you have literally nothing specific, because nothing specific to you exists. You fear new technology because it is unfamiliar to you, and that is the very definition of luddite.
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    > a cleaner UI and larger screen to show you the contents of that device? I haven't seen an in-car system that provides a better UI. Regardless, that's not actually important because I'm not interacting with the device or screen while I'm driving anyway. A larger screen doesn't seem like a big deal. I'm not spending much time looking at the screen anyway. > why do you care if your car has a computer on it or not? I don't. I care about the connectivity, not the presence of a computer. It's all but certain that connection will be used to funnel data back to the manufacturer or someone. > Seems overly paranoid, bordering on luddite… No need to start with the personal insults here. I'm expressing my own desires, I'm not saying I want to deprive others of theirs. That I don't want things that you do doesn't diminish or harm you in any way.
    - Zetice 3y ago
      Computers are built these days mainly to talk to other computers, due to the considerable value gained by offloading computational effort to a central location. Not wanting a computer to talk to other computers is like not wanting your oven to heat food except by friction. And "overly paranoid, bordering on luddite" is no insult, it's a description that your comments fit. If these words are insulting, stop fitting so well to them!
      - JohnFen 3y ago
        Eh, whatever. I think you're more interested in picking a fight than engaging in a useful or interesting conversation.
        Zetice 3y ago
        I think you're dismissing what I'm saying because you don't have a good reason to disagree with it, but you find it important to ape the "pro privacy" line, as that's what you see others do online.
        JohnFen 3y ago
        You haven't really said anything for me to dismiss. It looks to me that the only assertion of fact that you've made is "Computers are built these days mainly to talk to other computers", which I didn't comment on at all. I will here, though -- that assertion is untrue by being overly broad. Many are built with that in mind, but many are not. Everything else you've said is asking me for details about my opinion and stating that you disagree with my opinions. Which is totally fair, but I'm not sure what response you expect from me about that aside from "I disagree". > you find it important to ape the "pro privacy" line, as that's what you see others do online. Another personal attack.
- solarmist 3y ago
  I very much agree with your two hard lines.

JohnFen 3y ago

Going back to paper maps isn't the alternative. I already have a device with me that can do all of the navigation, etc., that I'd need. None of that needs to be built into the car. Backup cameras are fine. The only fancy thing I would like to have in my car is the ability to connect the sound system in it to my phone or computer via bluetooth as if it were headphones -- but I can add that easily as an aftermarket thing with the bonus of having actual knobs on it. I really only have two reasonably hard lines. I don't want my car to be able to talk with any external servers (it's a car, not a smartphone on wheels), and I don't want a touch screen interface instead of physical knobs and buttons. The presence of infotainment systems is a pretty solid indication that the car won't satisfy either of those things.

Zetice 3y ago
Why wouldn’t you want a cleaner UI and larger screen to show you the contents of that device? Also why do you care if your car has a computer on it or not? Seems overly paranoid, bordering on luddite…
- solarmist 3y ago
  I agree with him about the car talking to an external server. That is a disgusting grab by car manufacturers. For me, I don't care about my car having a computer, but I don't want it to talk to services without my permission and building their own thing shows a disregard for that desire. I love CarPlay/android and not offering those two most popular options doubles down on that disregard for customer interests.
  - Zetice 3y ago
    Fully agree re: CarPlay/Android Auto support. But the default of "privacy good at all cost" seems like massive overkill IMO. If there's specific evidence that a car is doing something that will specifically cause you harm in some way via data sharing, that's one thing. If it's a vague, general distrust, that falls into the "luddite paranoia" category.
    - solarmist 3y ago
      No it's not that. It's that I believe they will be profit seeking with that data unless forced to be otherwise. The last decade has worn out my optimism and tolerance about privacy concerns. If a company wants my trust, they have to proactively earn it by excessive transparency, at least GDPR level, on their part. If they can do that, I’ll consider it; otherwise, no thank you.
      - Zetice 3y ago
        Why is profiting from data collection considered de jure bad? Why does collecting data cost your trust, and why does not collecting data earn your trust?
    - JohnFen 3y ago
      > If it's a vague, general distrust There's nothing vague or general about it. We have years of examples of how such data gets used. You may be fine with that, and that's OK. I don't understand why you get so upset that others aren't fine with it, though. Why is this so emotional for you?
      - Zetice 3y ago
        Nothing emotional in what I write, just pointing out that you have precisely zero examples of how shared data from your car has been used to harm you specifically. It's not about what I'm fine with or not, it's about what you're posting on HN in advocacy of. You claim "years of examples" but you have literally nothing specific, because nothing specific to you exists. You fear new technology because it is unfamiliar to you, and that is the very definition of luddite.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  > a cleaner UI and larger screen to show you the contents of that device? I haven't seen an in-car system that provides a better UI. Regardless, that's not actually important because I'm not interacting with the device or screen while I'm driving anyway. A larger screen doesn't seem like a big deal. I'm not spending much time looking at the screen anyway. > why do you care if your car has a computer on it or not? I don't. I care about the connectivity, not the presence of a computer. It's all but certain that connection will be used to funnel data back to the manufacturer or someone. > Seems overly paranoid, bordering on luddite… No need to start with the personal insults here. I'm expressing my own desires, I'm not saying I want to deprive others of theirs. That I don't want things that you do doesn't diminish or harm you in any way.
  - Zetice 3y ago
    Computers are built these days mainly to talk to other computers, due to the considerable value gained by offloading computational effort to a central location. Not wanting a computer to talk to other computers is like not wanting your oven to heat food except by friction. And "overly paranoid, bordering on luddite" is no insult, it's a description that your comments fit. If these words are insulting, stop fitting so well to them!
    - JohnFen 3y ago
      Eh, whatever. I think you're more interested in picking a fight than engaging in a useful or interesting conversation.
      - Zetice 3y ago
        I think you're dismissing what I'm saying because you don't have a good reason to disagree with it, but you find it important to ape the "pro privacy" line, as that's what you see others do online.
        JohnFen 3y ago
        You haven't really said anything for me to dismiss. It looks to me that the only assertion of fact that you've made is "Computers are built these days mainly to talk to other computers", which I didn't comment on at all. I will here, though -- that assertion is untrue by being overly broad. Many are built with that in mind, but many are not. Everything else you've said is asking me for details about my opinion and stating that you disagree with my opinions. Which is totally fair, but I'm not sure what response you expect from me about that aside from "I disagree". > you find it important to ape the "pro privacy" line, as that's what you see others do online. Another personal attack.
solarmist 3y ago
I very much agree with your two hard lines.