5 ms·

A better title would be "low-touch real estate speculation doesn't pan out for some people". AirBnB flippers have wreaked small havoc in my city, scooping up al

A better title would be "low-touch real estate speculation doesn't pan out for some people". AirBnB flippers have wreaked small havoc in my city, scooping up all kinds of units that would have otherwise sold to people who would actually have lived in them (not to mention work in and contribute to the community here). I'm praying for a crash in the AirBnB market so that we can actually reuse that housing for something productive.

crooked-v 3y ago
That still wouldn't do all that much, given that every major US metro area has a shortage of homes in the first place [1]. At best it might reduce the rate at which home prices continue to increase. [1]: https://www.fanniemae.com/research-and-insights/perspectives/us-housing-shortage https://www.fanniemae.com/research-and-insights/perspectives...
- tech_ken 3y ago
  Unfortunately I have to agree, and our housing market is REALLY bad. I think the AirBnB issue is relatively small potatoes next to big money real estate holdings firms, who've really gone wild scooping up single family housing and renting it back to people at way above what a mortgage+taxes would cost. People are starting to realize that we need to improve the housing stock options, and there is beginning to be some political will behind it, but it's very slow going.
  - crooked-v 3y ago
    Residential estate shouldn't even be all that attractive for holding firms, though, with all the maintenance costs involved in it and the lack of economy of scale. The only reason it's such a draw is that it's in an excessive shortage, resulting in the absurd year-over-year market rate increases, and because interest rates are so low that every other investment has very low returns compared to historical results.
  - cyndicordon12 3y ago
    [dead]
paulddraper 3y ago
> people who would actually have lived in them Instead your city is getting more tourism? IDK if that is net positive or negative, but FWIW most areas try to boost tourism as much as possible. (Like, every U.S. state has a tourism dept/budget.)
- SkyPuncher 3y ago
  At least in my area, we absolutely get more tourists - but a lot of their money does not get spent within city limits. They rent a house near downtown, spending all day at the lakes/beaches/attractions outside of the city, then maybe go downtown for dinner (assuming they don't cook out).
  - denton-scratch 3y ago
    I live in a town with a resident population of about 140,000. It attracts a lot of tourists. I live in a flat with a neighbouring flat that is run as an unhosted AirBnB. I'm sure the presence of tourists helps some shops stay open; but not the kind of shops that I use. Tourists don't use butchers, greengrocers, tool and hardware stores. They use tourist shops, which consequently multiply. Today (as every day) I went to the shops. I got caught on the pavement/sidewalk behind a column of about 50 overseas visitors, following a tour guide. That column crashed into a similar column going in the opposite direction. This was the High Street, i.e. the main drag; it wasn't feasible to step into the carriageway, because there was traffic. In my view we have way too many tourists, and their guides don't extert enough control. I regularly have my doorbell pressed by AirBnB guests who can't get in, and expect me to do something about it. This is frequently at night. There have been a few loud parties, including one with underage girls. I've been sworn at and threatened a few times. The Council is trying to shut down this operator. They told the operator they were in violation of regulations (we're zoned as residential). They appealled. The Council won the appeal. I think they must have now appealled to the Secretary of State; they're still operating. This has taken over a year. I would like it if my neighbour were the same person that was my neighbour yesterday. I have no "proper" neighbours.
    - 3y ago
codeTired 3y ago
AirBnB is the worst thing to happen to the housing market and towns need to outright ban it or allow specific areas for short term housing. Generally short term housing causes headache for the neighbors. People who often do short stays don’t give a crap about noise, neighbors, or anything else. Plus many got into airbnb to get rich. Have 0 business sense, 0 landlord experience and often don’t maintain the property. Plus, every time I stayed at Airbnb I felt scammed. The pictures always lied. Some of the things were not as advertised. And before leaving I had a todo list. Absolutely pathetic way to spend vacations.
- ericfrazier 3y ago
  You are not the norm and loud belligerent Airbnb guests is not the norm
  - addisonl 3y ago
    Strawman: no one said loud guests are the norm.
    - friend_and_foe 3y ago
      Yup, all it takes is 1 out of 10 guests throwing beer cans over the fence to piss off the neighbors for good. It doesn't have to be the norm to suck ass.
  - codeTired 3y ago
    From what I am reading here my experience is the norm these days.
    - Remnant44 3y ago
      There's a very strong selection bias for people who will talk about their experiences.. much like product review, you only hear about the bad ones
- jareklupinski 3y ago
dionidium 3y ago
> AirBnB flippers have wreaked small havoc in my city Cities have put themselves in this position both because they don't allow enough new housing and because they don't allow enough new hotels and VRBO-like options in the places people want them.
- redserk 3y ago
  I at least partially disagree. A large number of smaller/basement airbnb units near me are within a very short walk of hotels or hotels offering suites. Generally speaking, the hotels are located closer to favorable amenities.
  - bombcar 3y ago
    Hotel and Airbnb prices are getting much closer unless you’re running with a group or family. But hotels are tightly controlled and regulated and located (with the associated considerations about traffic, noise, etc). Airbnbs can be anywhere, unless regulations extend to them (and even then they often skirt the regs).
taylodl 3y ago
On the flip side, the people staying in the AirBnB's tend to eat out more often and our patronizing local business. They're not taking any jobs, and the landlord is still paying the property tax. It's essentially free money to your city. WFH is working out the same way. People are spreading out to towns that don't have jobs to offer but thanks to people who are WFH they're bringing in money from the outside that's helping to prop up the local economy. As those people move out of the cities that's freeing up housing to be available for those who want to live in the city or need to live in the city.
- tech_ken 3y ago
  My city's property taxes are among the lowest in the nation for an urban metro, so that's not really a big factor. However you're right that tourists spend a lot of money in our food+drink and entertainment industries, which has definitely had some positive effects in our overall "scene" and generates some good sales+use tax. On the other hand, we're not really starved for wealthy people who like to have a good time but we are starved for mid- to low- cost housing, so IMO it would be a better deal for the city to consolidate the tourism into dense hotels and leave all the charming 1.5 BRs for first-time buyers. > They're not taking any jobs My understanding was that you couldn't really "take" jobs (in the long-term anyways). I would imagine that increasing the volume of our labor force would only grow our overall economy (so long as we can house everyone)
- dagw 3y ago
  the people staying in the AirBnB's tend to eat out more often I doubt it. One of the reasons people choose AirBnB over hotels is that they want a kitchen so that they don't have to eat out. As to taxes, while the city is still getting the property tax, they're losing out on the hotel taxes that the people staying in the AirBnB would otherwise have paid. Plus the profits that are now going to AirBnB would otherwise have gone to the hotel owner/managers and thus been more likely to get spent in the city. So on net I'd say people staying in AirBnBs generate quite a bit less money for the city than if they'd stayed in a hotel. The only places that this sort argument works is for places that are so out of the way or unpopular that they simply don't really have hotels for people to stay in.
bradly 3y ago
> AirBnB flippers have wreaked small havoc in my city, scooping up all kinds of units that would have otherwise sold to people who would actually have lived Does your city not monitor and control the short term rental market to alleviate this? Many cities have strict controls on rentals less than 30 day. One of the problems is owning a short term rental is seen/marketed at low-touch or passive income, but It takes a lot of work to run sort term rentals. We've ran into all sorts of crazy situations that take work to properly manage.
- redserk 3y ago
  Enforcement seems minimal to non-existent where I am.
bobbi9 3y ago
airbnb isnt entirely to blame, they just made the process that already existed easier for some people. This same phenomenon happens around college campuses for decades. They have special houses just for students or certain genders and many businesses cater to out of town renters. If you want changes, its at the gov. level or in regards to private property, which regulation of private property is like the opposite of what the western world is all about.

crooked-v 3y ago

That still wouldn't do all that much, given that every major US metro area has a shortage of homes in the first place [1]. At best it might reduce the rate at which home prices continue to increase. [1]: https://www.fanniemae.com/research-and-insights/perspectives/us-housing-shortage https://www.fanniemae.com/research-and-insights/perspectives...

tech_ken 3y ago
Unfortunately I have to agree, and our housing market is REALLY bad. I think the AirBnB issue is relatively small potatoes next to big money real estate holdings firms, who've really gone wild scooping up single family housing and renting it back to people at way above what a mortgage+taxes would cost. People are starting to realize that we need to improve the housing stock options, and there is beginning to be some political will behind it, but it's very slow going.
- crooked-v 3y ago
  Residential estate shouldn't even be all that attractive for holding firms, though, with all the maintenance costs involved in it and the lack of economy of scale. The only reason it's such a draw is that it's in an excessive shortage, resulting in the absurd year-over-year market rate increases, and because interest rates are so low that every other investment has very low returns compared to historical results.
- cyndicordon12 3y ago
  [dead]

paulddraper 3y ago

> people who would actually have lived in them Instead your city is getting more tourism? IDK if that is net positive or negative, but FWIW most areas try to boost tourism as much as possible. (Like, every U.S. state has a tourism dept/budget.)

SkyPuncher 3y ago
At least in my area, we absolutely get more tourists - but a lot of their money does not get spent within city limits. They rent a house near downtown, spending all day at the lakes/beaches/attractions outside of the city, then maybe go downtown for dinner (assuming they don't cook out).
- denton-scratch 3y ago
  I live in a town with a resident population of about 140,000. It attracts a lot of tourists. I live in a flat with a neighbouring flat that is run as an unhosted AirBnB. I'm sure the presence of tourists helps some shops stay open; but not the kind of shops that I use. Tourists don't use butchers, greengrocers, tool and hardware stores. They use tourist shops, which consequently multiply. Today (as every day) I went to the shops. I got caught on the pavement/sidewalk behind a column of about 50 overseas visitors, following a tour guide. That column crashed into a similar column going in the opposite direction. This was the High Street, i.e. the main drag; it wasn't feasible to step into the carriageway, because there was traffic. In my view we have way too many tourists, and their guides don't extert enough control. I regularly have my doorbell pressed by AirBnB guests who can't get in, and expect me to do something about it. This is frequently at night. There have been a few loud parties, including one with underage girls. I've been sworn at and threatened a few times. The Council is trying to shut down this operator. They told the operator they were in violation of regulations (we're zoned as residential). They appealled. The Council won the appeal. I think they must have now appealled to the Secretary of State; they're still operating. This has taken over a year. I would like it if my neighbour were the same person that was my neighbour yesterday. I have no "proper" neighbours.
  - 3y ago

codeTired 3y ago

AirBnB is the worst thing to happen to the housing market and towns need to outright ban it or allow specific areas for short term housing. Generally short term housing causes headache for the neighbors. People who often do short stays don’t give a crap about noise, neighbors, or anything else. Plus many got into airbnb to get rich. Have 0 business sense, 0 landlord experience and often don’t maintain the property. Plus, every time I stayed at Airbnb I felt scammed. The pictures always lied. Some of the things were not as advertised. And before leaving I had a todo list. Absolutely pathetic way to spend vacations.

ericfrazier 3y ago
You are not the norm and loud belligerent Airbnb guests is not the norm
- addisonl 3y ago
  Strawman: no one said loud guests are the norm.
  - friend_and_foe 3y ago
    Yup, all it takes is 1 out of 10 guests throwing beer cans over the fence to piss off the neighbors for good. It doesn't have to be the norm to suck ass.
- codeTired 3y ago
  From what I am reading here my experience is the norm these days.
  - Remnant44 3y ago
    There's a very strong selection bias for people who will talk about their experiences.. much like product review, you only hear about the bad ones
jareklupinski 3y ago

dionidium 3y ago

> AirBnB flippers have wreaked small havoc in my city Cities have put themselves in this position both because they don't allow enough new housing and because they don't allow enough new hotels and VRBO-like options in the places people want them.

redserk 3y ago
I at least partially disagree. A large number of smaller/basement airbnb units near me are within a very short walk of hotels or hotels offering suites. Generally speaking, the hotels are located closer to favorable amenities.
- bombcar 3y ago
  Hotel and Airbnb prices are getting much closer unless you’re running with a group or family. But hotels are tightly controlled and regulated and located (with the associated considerations about traffic, noise, etc). Airbnbs can be anywhere, unless regulations extend to them (and even then they often skirt the regs).

taylodl 3y ago

On the flip side, the people staying in the AirBnB's tend to eat out more often and our patronizing local business. They're not taking any jobs, and the landlord is still paying the property tax. It's essentially free money to your city. WFH is working out the same way. People are spreading out to towns that don't have jobs to offer but thanks to people who are WFH they're bringing in money from the outside that's helping to prop up the local economy. As those people move out of the cities that's freeing up housing to be available for those who want to live in the city or need to live in the city.

tech_ken 3y ago
My city's property taxes are among the lowest in the nation for an urban metro, so that's not really a big factor. However you're right that tourists spend a lot of money in our food+drink and entertainment industries, which has definitely had some positive effects in our overall "scene" and generates some good sales+use tax. On the other hand, we're not really starved for wealthy people who like to have a good time but we are starved for mid- to low- cost housing, so IMO it would be a better deal for the city to consolidate the tourism into dense hotels and leave all the charming 1.5 BRs for first-time buyers. > They're not taking any jobs My understanding was that you couldn't really "take" jobs (in the long-term anyways). I would imagine that increasing the volume of our labor force would only grow our overall economy (so long as we can house everyone)
dagw 3y ago
the people staying in the AirBnB's tend to eat out more often I doubt it. One of the reasons people choose AirBnB over hotels is that they want a kitchen so that they don't have to eat out. As to taxes, while the city is still getting the property tax, they're losing out on the hotel taxes that the people staying in the AirBnB would otherwise have paid. Plus the profits that are now going to AirBnB would otherwise have gone to the hotel owner/managers and thus been more likely to get spent in the city. So on net I'd say people staying in AirBnBs generate quite a bit less money for the city than if they'd stayed in a hotel. The only places that this sort argument works is for places that are so out of the way or unpopular that they simply don't really have hotels for people to stay in.

bradly 3y ago

> AirBnB flippers have wreaked small havoc in my city, scooping up all kinds of units that would have otherwise sold to people who would actually have lived Does your city not monitor and control the short term rental market to alleviate this? Many cities have strict controls on rentals less than 30 day. One of the problems is owning a short term rental is seen/marketed at low-touch or passive income, but It takes a lot of work to run sort term rentals. We've ran into all sorts of crazy situations that take work to properly manage.

redserk 3y ago
Enforcement seems minimal to non-existent where I am.

bobbi9 3y ago

airbnb isnt entirely to blame, they just made the process that already existed easier for some people. This same phenomenon happens around college campuses for decades. They have special houses just for students or certain genders and many businesses cater to out of town renters. If you want changes, its at the gov. level or in regards to private property, which regulation of private property is like the opposite of what the western world is all about.