4 ms·

Pedophilia and child porn involves people who cannot consent, so no. Funny how that's the one that folks reach for though isn't it? Mandating that relationships

Pedophilia and child porn involves people who cannot consent, so no. Funny how that's the one that folks reach for though isn't it? Mandating that relationships are consensual isn't equivalent to anarchy. It's exactly one of the rules you're talking about.

ses1984 3y ago
I’m not saying I disagree with you re child porn, but realize that you are encoding a lot of moral judgement in what qualifies as consensual. What makes the relationship between Uber and an Uber driver consensual? Can you give consent if your alternative is starvation or homelessness?
- thegrimmest 3y ago
  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZwvrxVavnQn https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZwvrxVavnQn [2:49] I agree it's not an absolute, immutable concept, but I think it's a hell of a lot clearer than "good" or "right" or "fair". What makes consent is the fact that either party can opt out at any time for any/no reason. It's consensual because we are decision-making agents, and in spite of privation we can still choose to refuse to transact. Consent is violated by force or direct threat of force, not by the circumstances the transacting parties may find themselves in. If you're very horny can you still refuse to consent to sex? If you happen to be dying of thirst and I offer you a glass of water, can you refuse? You can. Are there may reasons why you would? I don't imagine so. Does it follow there there are no circumstances under which anyone would refuse? It does not.
  - ses1984 3y ago
    Did anyone get my consent before burning coal and spewing toxic gas into the atmosphere? Did anyone get my consent before pulling all the fish out of the ocean? Did anyone get my consent before dumping toxic chemicals into the river that runs through my backyard?
    - thegrimmest 3y ago
      These are are problems of the commons[1], and do need governance. They don't however represent direct interactions between people (unlike say employment or sex) and so consent isn't really in-scope here. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commons
      - ses1984 3y ago
        Then let’s consider algorithmic driven gig work as a new type of problem of the commons. At one point damage to the environment wasn’t considered a problem of the commons.
        thegrimmest 3y ago
        It's not though, it's simply another option in the market. More options are always better than fewer. No one is forcing anyone to take these gigs, and the relationship between gig provider and worker is frankly none of anyone else's business so long as it's consensual. There is none of your air or water being contaminated.
        ses1984 3y ago
        Well we disagree about what consent means, among a lot of other things.
        thegrimmest 3y ago
        I'm just using the common definition, as applied to personal/romantic/sexual relationships. I even linked a video that quite clearly explains the definition.
        ses1984 3y ago
        Ok, the video doesn’t seem to cover whether children can give consent, and you said they can’t, so what’s missing?
- hughesjj 3y ago
  Also, consent being something that should be respected itself is a liberal social construct (that I wholeheartedly agree with). This hasn't always been the case, and still isn't everywhere today. Slavery still exists, so does misogyny. I'm a fan of the saying "tolerance isn't a paradox, it's a peace treaty". To extend that, peace treaties are literally laws.
hughesjj 3y ago
Who and what determines whether a human can consent? It it an age thing consistent across all humans or a developmental thing? If it's a developmental thing, well then how do you feel about those with developmental disorders (mental or physical)? Is it the case that one legally definable day based on age you become inarguably and unambiguously capable of consent? Obviously, not arguing for CP here, but I'm pointing out that the age of consent is indeed is a (valuable!) will imposed by society on others. I'm bringing CP up because it shows a bound on behavior which exists, and thus there is a line which needs to be drawn.
- thegrimmest 3y ago
  As I've written below[1], I agree consent is not an immutable fact of nature, but a human construct with arbitrary boundaries. Most of your questions are answered already by the legal system which defines the concept though. In order to consent (say to sign a contract) you have to be of the age of majority and not ruled legally incompetent by a court of law. So basically yes, an age thing, and the "who" that decides is a court of law. All I'm suggesting is that this liberal imposition - that relationships between adults (as above caveated) must be symmetrically consensual - should take precedence over how good, right, just, harmonious, or fair said relationships are perceived to be. If we think we can make something more fair but less consensual, we should not. 1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37081906 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37081906

ses1984 3y ago

I’m not saying I disagree with you re child porn, but realize that you are encoding a lot of moral judgement in what qualifies as consensual. What makes the relationship between Uber and an Uber driver consensual? Can you give consent if your alternative is starvation or homelessness?

thegrimmest 3y ago
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZwvrxVavnQn https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pZwvrxVavnQn [2:49] I agree it's not an absolute, immutable concept, but I think it's a hell of a lot clearer than "good" or "right" or "fair". What makes consent is the fact that either party can opt out at any time for any/no reason. It's consensual because we are decision-making agents, and in spite of privation we can still choose to refuse to transact. Consent is violated by force or direct threat of force, not by the circumstances the transacting parties may find themselves in. If you're very horny can you still refuse to consent to sex? If you happen to be dying of thirst and I offer you a glass of water, can you refuse? You can. Are there may reasons why you would? I don't imagine so. Does it follow there there are no circumstances under which anyone would refuse? It does not.
- ses1984 3y ago
  Did anyone get my consent before burning coal and spewing toxic gas into the atmosphere? Did anyone get my consent before pulling all the fish out of the ocean? Did anyone get my consent before dumping toxic chemicals into the river that runs through my backyard?
  - thegrimmest 3y ago
    These are are problems of the commons[1], and do need governance. They don't however represent direct interactions between people (unlike say employment or sex) and so consent isn't really in-scope here. 1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commons https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Commons
    - ses1984 3y ago
      Then let’s consider algorithmic driven gig work as a new type of problem of the commons. At one point damage to the environment wasn’t considered a problem of the commons.
      - thegrimmest 3y ago
        It's not though, it's simply another option in the market. More options are always better than fewer. No one is forcing anyone to take these gigs, and the relationship between gig provider and worker is frankly none of anyone else's business so long as it's consensual. There is none of your air or water being contaminated.
        ses1984 3y ago
        Well we disagree about what consent means, among a lot of other things.
        thegrimmest 3y ago
        I'm just using the common definition, as applied to personal/romantic/sexual relationships. I even linked a video that quite clearly explains the definition.
        ses1984 3y ago
        Ok, the video doesn’t seem to cover whether children can give consent, and you said they can’t, so what’s missing?
hughesjj 3y ago
Also, consent being something that should be respected itself is a liberal social construct (that I wholeheartedly agree with). This hasn't always been the case, and still isn't everywhere today. Slavery still exists, so does misogyny. I'm a fan of the saying "tolerance isn't a paradox, it's a peace treaty". To extend that, peace treaties are literally laws.

hughesjj 3y ago

Who and what determines whether a human can consent? It it an age thing consistent across all humans or a developmental thing? If it's a developmental thing, well then how do you feel about those with developmental disorders (mental or physical)? Is it the case that one legally definable day based on age you become inarguably and unambiguously capable of consent? Obviously, not arguing for CP here, but I'm pointing out that the age of consent is indeed is a (valuable!) will imposed by society on others. I'm bringing CP up because it shows a bound on behavior which exists, and thus there is a line which needs to be drawn.

thegrimmest 3y ago
As I've written below[1], I agree consent is not an immutable fact of nature, but a human construct with arbitrary boundaries. Most of your questions are answered already by the legal system which defines the concept though. In order to consent (say to sign a contract) you have to be of the age of majority and not ruled legally incompetent by a court of law. So basically yes, an age thing, and the "who" that decides is a court of law. All I'm suggesting is that this liberal imposition - that relationships between adults (as above caveated) must be symmetrically consensual - should take precedence over how good, right, just, harmonious, or fair said relationships are perceived to be. If we think we can make something more fair but less consensual, we should not. 1. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37081906 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=37081906