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This isn't about cracking down on piracy or anything of that sort. It's about slowly getting control of the media and information channels that Russian people h

by lifty 3y ago

This isn't about cracking down on piracy or anything of that sort. It's about slowly getting control of the media and information channels that Russian people have access to. The same playbook that China has been using since forever. Authorities have been encouraging popular Internet celebrities to start posting their content on local networks/apps, so in time Western media sources like Youtube and Twitter will be blocked. The government wants to get full control of the information channels so it can squash dissent easily.

Aerbil313 3y ago
I don't live in China. Yet I'd very much like my country having its own national software stack (OS, search engine, browser, social media apps). All is fine for you guys in the US, but you forget when our national interests conflict with yours or big tech corporations or when the privacy of our citizens is concerned, it happens to be a national security issue. I trust my own government to not spy on me unnecessarily, and even if I'm to be spied by someone, I'd prefer my own government who is far more likely to act in my best interests than the three letter agencies of US.
- goda90 3y ago
  Why would you need a national software stack when there's open source solutions for everything?
  - Aerbil313 3y ago
    Tech nerds often don't realize how much the world of software is subject to the real world. You can be cut off access to any technology if your country is not willing to give its natural resources to another. No different from trade sanctions. Open source is a bunch of individuals helpless in the face of orders from Pentagon to close it all up. * You won't have the expertise to quickly build your own solutions when this happens you are cut off access to a certain technology. A browser is a beast to implement as we all know. * You can't trust that e.g. Chromium as audited by American "experts" is really not phoning home if it detects the IP is from e.g Turkish defense corporation A's RD center. * You need to have that software-skilled workforce anyway to ensure technological progress of your country.
    - GoblinSlayer 3y ago
      You mean they block SSL and you have to use plain HTTP?
      - Aerbil313 3y ago
        SSL is but one form of centralization of technology.
- fnordpiglet 3y ago
  I don’t disagree with this, but it would be better to have a stack that’s not controlled by any government but is based on technical standards - not governmental dictates or corporate control. I would also note that in your country the US agencies have no authority. However your own government can use that information to imprison you or otherwise exert its jurisdictional control. I think that’s generally what people worry about. It’s hard to imagine a reason the US government would care about you as a citizen of X country, whereas there are lots of governments who oppress their citizens for being themselves and for who they associate with.
  - Aerbil313 3y ago
    > it would be better to have a stack that’s not controlled by any government but is based on technical standards That era of globalization is slowly passing away. > I would also note that in your country the US agencies have no authority. No it plenty does. Not well-known on the west side of the internet, but the US can and did easily order to our governments the individuals (which she saw to be influential in the directions she didn't want) to be imprisoned, tortured and executed. And this is just cost-effective side of the coin. Three letter agencies can make anyone disappear. I just searched for almost 25 mins for an article documenting such a case. I was able to find it several times in the past with increasing difficulty. It's not even on the webarchive now. I think the article is finally nuked by some agency. > there are lots of governments who oppress their citizens for being themselves and for who they associate with. Not everyone agrees with the idea that individual freedom extremism is good, or that everyone should be allowed to do or say anything as long as it doesn't adversely affect others. In fact in this side of the world we think that's a silly and naive standpoint.
    - Aerbil313 3y ago
      Edit: I literally found the article from my childhood project of replicating the website of the article, sitting in Google Drive trash, awaiting the 30days deletion. I searched for the exact title and indeed the article is nuked from the entire internet including webarchive except mere links on FB and Twitter. Three letter guys caught red handed. Here's the data of the article: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1wjPH5hN-uyATlO7K3YnzEgPxZ0GRIYjq https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1wjPH5hN-uyATlO7K3Ynz... Open the metin.txt for article. veri.json is metadata, 'baslik' means title. I hope my google account will not be burned over this.
- sidibe 3y ago
  > Yet I'd very much like my country having its own national software stack The question is would you take that at the expense of blocking the big American corporations? That's probably really how the Chinese have developed their own to this degree. For example they weren't ubiquitous but Google was starting to make headway in China and Chinese in the late 00s when gmail hack/Google ban/GFW started. Baidu is not a quality service (though maybe because of government restrictions)
- Lex-2008 3y ago
  > if I'm to be spied by someone, I'd prefer my own government who is far more likely to act in my best interests than the three letter agencies of US. I'm also aware of an opposite opinion: if I'm to be spied by someone, it's better to be a three letter agency overseas, since it's much harder for them to harm me, than a three letter agency in my home country, which can just knock at my door.
  - Aerbil313 3y ago
    See my reply to your sibling 'I don't disagree with this...'
    - Lex-2008 3y ago
      Oh, thanks for pointing me to it! And thanks for the comment. Indeed, I was thinking about countries like Russia, where US three-letter agencies don't have extradition power, as far as I know (thinking about Snowden). Countries like mentioned in that thread, indeed, have more complicated relationships with US.
- Paradigma11 3y ago
  If the CIA/NSA spies on you what would a plausible bad outcome look like? If the Chinese government spies on you and finds some behavior it finds unacceptable your social credit tanks and you cant travel, send your children to a good school....
- lifty 3y ago
  I fully agree with you. Digital sovereignty is important for countries and it makes sense that they are trying to become digitally independent. The bad part is that this particular instance, it will be used against the people. I would say that better goal would be for individuals to be digitally sovereign, and not countries. Individual digital sovereignty protects us from external and internal oppression.
  - Aerbil313 3y ago
    I'm afraid that's technically not possible. Internet is inherently centralized due to the need for ISPs, and there are TLS CAs, TSMC, and many more things. Current sophistication of technology needs centralization for its manufacture and use.
    - lostmsu 3y ago
      None of the things you mentioned are fully centralized.
- lost_tourist 3y ago
  But are you going to block the US/Europe on your national network so that your citizens live in a silo. Are you afraid of free flow of information or of your citizens seeing it? That's what Russia, China, and North Korea do, is that what you want in your country?
  - Aerbil313 3y ago
    I don't directly propose blocking the rest of the world, but e.g. using a national social media app implies banning foreign ones. I'd very much like the personal data and the advertising income mined from the eyeball time of citizens to not cross the borders of my country. This is not to mention a state-run app would have just enough ads to pay for the costs of the service, and maybe even none if it's ruled in the parliament that advertisement is harmful to the wellbeing of citizens.
RyEgswuCsn 3y ago
"Never stop fighting for the control of the agenda, for all your enemies are doing the same." --- Chairman Mao
andreygrehov 3y ago
Many non-western countries do not share cultural values with western countries. As an example, see the number of anti-LGBT people in Georgia (the country, not the state of Georgia in US) – it's not just a small protest, but thousands of thousands of people. When it comes to Russia, they are doing it for the same reasons, but also in response to the sanctions: "If you don't want to work with us, you won't get any traffic from our country". Every country in the world seeks to control information; Russia is not unique in this regard. The primary reasons they are blocking the Internet are sanctions and an attempt to preserve conservative values.

by lifty 3y ago

Aerbil313 3y ago

I don't live in China. Yet I'd very much like my country having its own national software stack (OS, search engine, browser, social media apps). All is fine for you guys in the US, but you forget when our national interests conflict with yours or big tech corporations or when the privacy of our citizens is concerned, it happens to be a national security issue. I trust my own government to not spy on me unnecessarily, and even if I'm to be spied by someone, I'd prefer my own government who is far more likely to act in my best interests than the three letter agencies of US.

goda90 3y ago
Why would you need a national software stack when there's open source solutions for everything?
- Aerbil313 3y ago
  Tech nerds often don't realize how much the world of software is subject to the real world. You can be cut off access to any technology if your country is not willing to give its natural resources to another. No different from trade sanctions. Open source is a bunch of individuals helpless in the face of orders from Pentagon to close it all up. * You won't have the expertise to quickly build your own solutions when this happens you are cut off access to a certain technology. A browser is a beast to implement as we all know. * You can't trust that e.g. Chromium as audited by American "experts" is really not phoning home if it detects the IP is from e.g Turkish defense corporation A's RD center. * You need to have that software-skilled workforce anyway to ensure technological progress of your country.
  - GoblinSlayer 3y ago
    You mean they block SSL and you have to use plain HTTP?
    - Aerbil313 3y ago
      SSL is but one form of centralization of technology.
fnordpiglet 3y ago
I don’t disagree with this, but it would be better to have a stack that’s not controlled by any government but is based on technical standards - not governmental dictates or corporate control. I would also note that in your country the US agencies have no authority. However your own government can use that information to imprison you or otherwise exert its jurisdictional control. I think that’s generally what people worry about. It’s hard to imagine a reason the US government would care about you as a citizen of X country, whereas there are lots of governments who oppress their citizens for being themselves and for who they associate with.
- Aerbil313 3y ago
  > it would be better to have a stack that’s not controlled by any government but is based on technical standards That era of globalization is slowly passing away. > I would also note that in your country the US agencies have no authority. No it plenty does. Not well-known on the west side of the internet, but the US can and did easily order to our governments the individuals (which she saw to be influential in the directions she didn't want) to be imprisoned, tortured and executed. And this is just cost-effective side of the coin. Three letter agencies can make anyone disappear. I just searched for almost 25 mins for an article documenting such a case. I was able to find it several times in the past with increasing difficulty. It's not even on the webarchive now. I think the article is finally nuked by some agency. > there are lots of governments who oppress their citizens for being themselves and for who they associate with. Not everyone agrees with the idea that individual freedom extremism is good, or that everyone should be allowed to do or say anything as long as it doesn't adversely affect others. In fact in this side of the world we think that's a silly and naive standpoint.
  - Aerbil313 3y ago
    Edit: I literally found the article from my childhood project of replicating the website of the article, sitting in Google Drive trash, awaiting the 30days deletion. I searched for the exact title and indeed the article is nuked from the entire internet including webarchive except mere links on FB and Twitter. Three letter guys caught red handed. Here's the data of the article: https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1wjPH5hN-uyATlO7K3YnzEgPxZ0GRIYjq https://drive.google.com/drive/folders/1wjPH5hN-uyATlO7K3Ynz... Open the metin.txt for article. veri.json is metadata, 'baslik' means title. I hope my google account will not be burned over this.
sidibe 3y ago
> Yet I'd very much like my country having its own national software stack The question is would you take that at the expense of blocking the big American corporations? That's probably really how the Chinese have developed their own to this degree. For example they weren't ubiquitous but Google was starting to make headway in China and Chinese in the late 00s when gmail hack/Google ban/GFW started. Baidu is not a quality service (though maybe because of government restrictions)
Lex-2008 3y ago
> if I'm to be spied by someone, I'd prefer my own government who is far more likely to act in my best interests than the three letter agencies of US. I'm also aware of an opposite opinion: if I'm to be spied by someone, it's better to be a three letter agency overseas, since it's much harder for them to harm me, than a three letter agency in my home country, which can just knock at my door.
- Aerbil313 3y ago
  See my reply to your sibling 'I don't disagree with this...'
  - Lex-2008 3y ago
    Oh, thanks for pointing me to it! And thanks for the comment. Indeed, I was thinking about countries like Russia, where US three-letter agencies don't have extradition power, as far as I know (thinking about Snowden). Countries like mentioned in that thread, indeed, have more complicated relationships with US.
Paradigma11 3y ago
If the CIA/NSA spies on you what would a plausible bad outcome look like? If the Chinese government spies on you and finds some behavior it finds unacceptable your social credit tanks and you cant travel, send your children to a good school....
lifty 3y ago
I fully agree with you. Digital sovereignty is important for countries and it makes sense that they are trying to become digitally independent. The bad part is that this particular instance, it will be used against the people. I would say that better goal would be for individuals to be digitally sovereign, and not countries. Individual digital sovereignty protects us from external and internal oppression.
- Aerbil313 3y ago
  I'm afraid that's technically not possible. Internet is inherently centralized due to the need for ISPs, and there are TLS CAs, TSMC, and many more things. Current sophistication of technology needs centralization for its manufacture and use.
  - lostmsu 3y ago
    None of the things you mentioned are fully centralized.
lost_tourist 3y ago
But are you going to block the US/Europe on your national network so that your citizens live in a silo. Are you afraid of free flow of information or of your citizens seeing it? That's what Russia, China, and North Korea do, is that what you want in your country?
- Aerbil313 3y ago
  I don't directly propose blocking the rest of the world, but e.g. using a national social media app implies banning foreign ones. I'd very much like the personal data and the advertising income mined from the eyeball time of citizens to not cross the borders of my country. This is not to mention a state-run app would have just enough ads to pay for the costs of the service, and maybe even none if it's ruled in the parliament that advertisement is harmful to the wellbeing of citizens.

RyEgswuCsn 3y ago

"Never stop fighting for the control of the agenda, for all your enemies are doing the same." --- Chairman Mao

andreygrehov 3y ago

Many non-western countries do not share cultural values with western countries. As an example, see the number of anti-LGBT people in Georgia (the country, not the state of Georgia in US) – it's not just a small protest, but thousands of thousands of people. When it comes to Russia, they are doing it for the same reasons, but also in response to the sanctions: "If you don't want to work with us, you won't get any traffic from our country". Every country in the world seeks to control information; Russia is not unique in this regard. The primary reasons they are blocking the Internet are sanctions and an attempt to preserve conservative values.