6 ms·

There is no consent when it comes to the employer/employee power imbalance. Agree or be fired is coersion.

jdietrich 3y ago
That might fly in an at-will state, but in the UK it's going to end up at an employment tribunal. "Agree or be fired" falls down if the law strictly regulates how, when and why someone can be fired and those laws are readily enforced. An employee asserting their statutory rights is absolutely not a legitimate grounds for dismissal. The Data Protection Act does allow for monitoring without consent, but only where that monitoring is specific and limited to an absolutely necessary purpose that overrides the rights of the data subject: for example, the detection and prevention of crime, the protection of life or limb, or the fulfilment of a legal obligation. For any other purpose, consent must be given; for that consent to be valid, it must be fully informed, freely given and freely revocable. Where consent is relied upon as the basis for data processing, the burden of proof is upon the data processor to demonstrate that the consent was legitimately given.
- Jochim 3y ago
  It won't in most cases. People either don't know or don't want to risk their job for the possibility of a payout at tribunal. That's assuming the employee is even aware that they're being monitored in the first place.
  - verve_rat 3y ago
    Mostly it will be rolled out over time. Not "agree or be fired" but rather "agree or don't get hired". It will become a standard cause in employment contracts that people will be "free" to negotiate, just like everyone "negotiates" their employment contracts now.
- linster 3y ago
  Yes, a voice of commonwealth reason. Not everywhere is an at-will employment type of place, and it’s refreshing to see people be reminded that employee rights exist in parts of the world and that employment isn’t a one-way street.
- Der_Einzige 3y ago
  All of the USA except sort of Montana is an “at will” state and even Montana is basically “at will”.
prepend 3y ago
Also there’s no consent about equipment that someone else owns. It’s like expecting the phone company not to log every key press on the pay telephone boxes they have set up. I assume everything my work computer can monitor is being monitored. If I want privacy, I use a personal device.
- zarzavat 3y ago
  Would you be okay with your boss putting a CCTV camera in their bathroom and watching you do your business? After all, it’s their toilet.
  - alchemist1e9 3y ago
    Is the employer hiring you to use the toilet to produce input for the company’s economic product? like human based manure maybe, then yes. The outrage seems to mostly be about computer system monitoring but it’s bizarre to me as I’ve also always assumed all my computer activity at an employer device is 100% monitored. Why would it not be? especially this has always been done for security reasons.
  - prepend 3y ago
    Fortunately in the US there are laws against surveillance where there’s an expectation of privacy and bathrooms are explicitly called out. There have been numerous tests and offices and computers have been noted to not have an expectation of privacy, even keyloggers. Id like to see a case where people take their work laptop into the toilet and employers record business and see how the courts decide that.
    - weard_beard 3y ago
      Precisely. There need to be carve outs. I need to be able to check my bank balance to see if I can afford lunch with my coworkers. I need to be able to receive messages about my family’s health and well-being. I need to do this without my employer then having unfettered access to sexy wife pics and my full banking history.
pizzafeelsright 3y ago
May I counter with a different idea? I have no responsibility outside my job duties. The company goes folds? Goes into massive debt? I do not lose sleep or stress in the slightest. There is no power imbalance in my mind. There is no whip or debt to the company to pay off. Acquiring this mindset took one bad boss when they altered our agreement and I quit that moment without looking back. I had no job lined up yet knew my skills were valuable.
- capableweb 3y ago
  > I have no responsibility outside my job duties. The company goes folds? Goes into massive debt? I do not lose sleep or stress in the slightest. I mean, that's great for you. But for millions of people, their health and wellness is directly tied into making money this very month (and possibly getting health insurance for them and/or their family), and losing their employer because they fuck up directly interfere with that, and will make their life a living hell until they can find a new job, which isn't always easy with the various constraints people have in their life.
  - gampleman 3y ago
    One of the best things you can do to make your life significantly better is to figure out how long it would take you to get a job that you could survive with, then save enough many in the bank to be able to live that long without trouble.
    - proto_lambda 3y ago
      "One of the best things you can do for yourself is having enough money" yeah, no shit. Except many (or even most) people can't.
    - capableweb 3y ago
      Sure, which is easy for us (here on HN) as we possess skills that are sought after. But even you have to realize that most people aren't in the same situation, nor in situations where they can just sit down and learn stuff like that. In addition, being poor tends to make you more poor, as everything is working against you. But it might be hard to sympathize with that reality unless you've experienced it yourself at one point in your life. Life is wide, really really wide, and it's a shitty experience for large swaths of the population.
joncrocks 3y ago
At a certain point there is always going to be a power imbalance between two parties. So if the existence of an imbalance implies non-consent/coercion, can there ever be consent?

That might fly in an at-will state, but in the UK it's going to end up at an employment tribunal. "Agree or be fired" falls down if the law strictly regulates how, when and why someone can be fired and those laws are readily enforced. An employee asserting their statutory rights is absolutely not a legitimate grounds for dismissal. The Data Protection Act does allow for monitoring without consent, but only where that monitoring is specific and limited to an absolutely necessary purpose that overrides the rights of the data subject: for example, the detection and prevention of crime, the protection of life or limb, or the fulfilment of a legal obligation. For any other purpose, consent must be given; for that consent to be valid, it must be fully informed, freely given and freely revocable. Where consent is relied upon as the basis for data processing, the burden of proof is upon the data processor to demonstrate that the consent was legitimately given.

Jochim 3y ago
It won't in most cases. People either don't know or don't want to risk their job for the possibility of a payout at tribunal. That's assuming the employee is even aware that they're being monitored in the first place.
- verve_rat 3y ago
  Mostly it will be rolled out over time. Not "agree or be fired" but rather "agree or don't get hired". It will become a standard cause in employment contracts that people will be "free" to negotiate, just like everyone "negotiates" their employment contracts now.
linster 3y ago
Yes, a voice of commonwealth reason. Not everywhere is an at-will employment type of place, and it’s refreshing to see people be reminded that employee rights exist in parts of the world and that employment isn’t a one-way street.
Der_Einzige 3y ago
All of the USA except sort of Montana is an “at will” state and even Montana is basically “at will”.

prepend 3y ago

Also there’s no consent about equipment that someone else owns. It’s like expecting the phone company not to log every key press on the pay telephone boxes they have set up. I assume everything my work computer can monitor is being monitored. If I want privacy, I use a personal device.

zarzavat 3y ago
Would you be okay with your boss putting a CCTV camera in their bathroom and watching you do your business? After all, it’s their toilet.
- alchemist1e9 3y ago
  Is the employer hiring you to use the toilet to produce input for the company’s economic product? like human based manure maybe, then yes. The outrage seems to mostly be about computer system monitoring but it’s bizarre to me as I’ve also always assumed all my computer activity at an employer device is 100% monitored. Why would it not be? especially this has always been done for security reasons.
- prepend 3y ago
  Fortunately in the US there are laws against surveillance where there’s an expectation of privacy and bathrooms are explicitly called out. There have been numerous tests and offices and computers have been noted to not have an expectation of privacy, even keyloggers. Id like to see a case where people take their work laptop into the toilet and employers record business and see how the courts decide that.
  - weard_beard 3y ago
    Precisely. There need to be carve outs. I need to be able to check my bank balance to see if I can afford lunch with my coworkers. I need to be able to receive messages about my family’s health and well-being. I need to do this without my employer then having unfettered access to sexy wife pics and my full banking history.

pizzafeelsright 3y ago

May I counter with a different idea? I have no responsibility outside my job duties. The company goes folds? Goes into massive debt? I do not lose sleep or stress in the slightest. There is no power imbalance in my mind. There is no whip or debt to the company to pay off. Acquiring this mindset took one bad boss when they altered our agreement and I quit that moment without looking back. I had no job lined up yet knew my skills were valuable.

capableweb 3y ago
> I have no responsibility outside my job duties. The company goes folds? Goes into massive debt? I do not lose sleep or stress in the slightest. I mean, that's great for you. But for millions of people, their health and wellness is directly tied into making money this very month (and possibly getting health insurance for them and/or their family), and losing their employer because they fuck up directly interfere with that, and will make their life a living hell until they can find a new job, which isn't always easy with the various constraints people have in their life.
- gampleman 3y ago
  One of the best things you can do to make your life significantly better is to figure out how long it would take you to get a job that you could survive with, then save enough many in the bank to be able to live that long without trouble.
  - proto_lambda 3y ago
    "One of the best things you can do for yourself is having enough money" yeah, no shit. Except many (or even most) people can't.
  - capableweb 3y ago
    Sure, which is easy for us (here on HN) as we possess skills that are sought after. But even you have to realize that most people aren't in the same situation, nor in situations where they can just sit down and learn stuff like that. In addition, being poor tends to make you more poor, as everything is working against you. But it might be hard to sympathize with that reality unless you've experienced it yourself at one point in your life. Life is wide, really really wide, and it's a shitty experience for large swaths of the population.

joncrocks 3y ago

At a certain point there is always going to be a power imbalance between two parties. So if the existence of an imbalance implies non-consent/coercion, can there ever be consent?