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This is an interesting issue. Simplified and Traditional are different (but closely related) writing systems that can be used to express the exact same text. T

This is an interesting issue. Simplified and Traditional are different (but closely related) writing systems that can be used to express the exact same text. They are not different linguistic variants of Chinese. It looks like regardless of which writing system you choose, Google still translates into the most widely used variant of Chinese: Standard Chinese, as spoken on the mainland. It just writes the result using the requested characters. It doesn't decide to use more characteristically Taiwanese phrases if you select traditional characters. In order to address the complaint here, Google could allow one to select the writing system (Simplified vs. Traditional) independently from the regional variety (Mainland, Taiwan, etc.).

komali2 3y ago
To clarify, "Standard Chinese" is the English term to describe the official language of the PRC. There is no country called "mainland," nor is there a country called "mainland China," nor is there a language that can be accurately called "Chinese." It's much more clear in Mandarin itself, such as 官話. Note that some might translate this as "Traditional Chinese," separate from the typical meaning, when trying to separate "simplified characters" from "traditional characters." In English it's all a mess. Also, you can write guanhua or beifanghua or "Standard Chinese" in both Simplified and Traditional charactersets. They are almost 1:1. You also used to be able to write Japanese, Vietnamese, Korean, and other languages in Traditional Chinese characters. That's why we should be careful to separate Guanhua ("Standard Chinese") from Taiwanese Mandarin and etc. imo using the word "Chinese" in the descriptor just sows further confusion and in fact furthers the political goals of the CPC to cast a political blanket over all things even remotely descriptive as "Chinese," be they language, culture, race, heritage, or nationality.
- DiogenesKynikos 3y ago
  The Mainland is a well established concept when talking about China. "Standard Chinese," "Mandarin Chinese," or however you want to call it (there are several terms in Chinese itself that refer to essentially the same thing) is the official language both on the mainland and in Taiwan. They have slightly different variants, but both standards grew out of the same historical movement to standardize Chinese. Both the Republic of China and the People's Republic of China wanted to create a national standard to enable universal communication in the country, and the PRC essentially adopted the standard the ROC had been working on.
  - komali2 3y ago
    > both on the mainland and in Taiwan This is an accident of history and a quirk of the English translation. Though the official language in English is described as "Standard Chinese," in Mandarin it's written as 國語, which just means "national language." The National Language described is Taiwanese Mandarin, 華語, which translates in English usually as Mandarin Language. By some measures it's very similar but it's different enough to deserve a different name, and the efforts of Taiwanese people to separate their culture from that of the PRC, and their ROC ancestors that came from the territory of the PRC, is a valid effort and should be acknowledged. Give it another 40 years or so and the languages will be quite distinct, as Taiwanese consciously incorporate more Hokkien, Hakka, and the various indigenous languages into their version of Mandarin to form a unique cultural identity. > The Mainland is a well established concept when talking about China. And people will happily, and inaccurately, describe the UK as "Britain" or "England," much to the annoyance of people who prefer to maintain their own unique cultural identity within the UK. In Taiwan this issue is even more critical as the sovereignty of the nation is under attack from many angles, including linguistically and culturally. There is no country on earth called The Mainland, and there is no country on earth called China, and CPC efforts to engage in cultural imperialism by casting a wide net around the concept of China and Chinese, as well as lay claims to historical Chinese imperial territories, and furthermore to imply that Taiwan is a PRC territory by calling the PRC the "mainland" (thus Taiwan as a province or colony), should be actively resisted.
    - DiogenesKynikos 3y ago
      > This is an accident of history and a quirk of the English translation. It's not an accident of history. The Nationalists and the Communists had many similar influences (e.g., Sun Yat-Sen is revered by both). One of the ideas they shared in common was the idea of creating a national language. The PRC basically adopted the standardized form of Chinese developed by the ROC. > Give it another 40 years or so and the languages will be quite distinct I'm not so sure about this, given the amount of cultural interchange across the strait. Speaking in a more Taiwanese way is actually quite popular in mainland China, where it's considered cute. > There is no country on earth called The Mainland I'm not going to get into the entire nationalist dispute here. "The Mainland" marks out a well defined geographic area that's not quite synonymous with the PRC.
boredhedgehog 3y ago
> Google could allow one to select the writing system I'm not sure their models have a concept of writing systems. I noticed that neither Google Translate nor DeepL understand the equivalence of katakana and hiragana in Japanese. Probably every character is just an independent token to them.
4cao 3y ago
If, as you are claiming, the Taiwanese don't have their own Taiwanese Mandarin, with their language being just the same as the Mandarin used in China, how can it be that at the same time they also don't get to have a say in what constitutes the "standard" of that "common" language they share with the "mainland?" Also, there is no reason for constantly calling it "Mainland China" where you could just as well call it "China," unless it is to further a political agenda. Anyway, this is all beside the point. The concept of a "standard" language is political not linguistic. If Google is run as a business, not a political entity, their linguistic choices should reflect the language actually being used in any given market, and not be based on purported "standards" promulgated elsewhere. The same simple concept that somehow already works well for other language pairs that could be construed as similar to the point of being the same should also be applied here.
- DiogenesKynikos 3y ago
  > If, as you are claiming, the Taiwanese don't have their own Taiwanese Mandarin, with their language being just the same as the Mandarin used in China This is like saying the Canadians and the Americans each have their own unique language. They speak the same language, with small dialectal differences, and small differences in official standards (semi-official, in the case of the US). The internal differences in Mandarin as spoken in different regions of China are far larger than the differences between the ROC and PRC standards. In the case of the PRC and ROC (now commonly known as "Taiwan"), the PRC standard is derived from the ROC standard, so emphasizing the differences is somewhat strange. They're very closely related to one another. > Also, there is no reason for constantly calling it "Mainland China" where you could just as well call it "China," unless it is to further a political agenda. "Mainland China" and "China" are not synonymous. Mainland China comprises the provinces of the mainland and Hainan. However you define China, at a minimum, it also contains Hong Kong and Macau, which are not part of "Mainland China." Hong Kong notably uses traditional characters, and it has slightly different standards than Taiwan. > If Google is run as a business, not a political entity, their linguistic choices should reflect the language actually being used in any given market, and not be based on purported "standards" promulgated elsewhere. Google's Chinese translations are so utterly terrible that this entire discussion is almost moot. I seriously doubt that Google is trying very hard to adhere to any particular standard version of Chinese. If you want decent Chinese <-> English translations, use DeepL.

komali2 3y ago

To clarify, "Standard Chinese" is the English term to describe the official language of the PRC. There is no country called "mainland," nor is there a country called "mainland China," nor is there a language that can be accurately called "Chinese." It's much more clear in Mandarin itself, such as 官話. Note that some might translate this as "Traditional Chinese," separate from the typical meaning, when trying to separate "simplified characters" from "traditional characters." In English it's all a mess. Also, you can write guanhua or beifanghua or "Standard Chinese" in both Simplified and Traditional charactersets. They are almost 1:1. You also used to be able to write Japanese, Vietnamese, Korean, and other languages in Traditional Chinese characters. That's why we should be careful to separate Guanhua ("Standard Chinese") from Taiwanese Mandarin and etc. imo using the word "Chinese" in the descriptor just sows further confusion and in fact furthers the political goals of the CPC to cast a political blanket over all things even remotely descriptive as "Chinese," be they language, culture, race, heritage, or nationality.

DiogenesKynikos 3y ago
The Mainland is a well established concept when talking about China. "Standard Chinese," "Mandarin Chinese," or however you want to call it (there are several terms in Chinese itself that refer to essentially the same thing) is the official language both on the mainland and in Taiwan. They have slightly different variants, but both standards grew out of the same historical movement to standardize Chinese. Both the Republic of China and the People's Republic of China wanted to create a national standard to enable universal communication in the country, and the PRC essentially adopted the standard the ROC had been working on.
- komali2 3y ago
  > both on the mainland and in Taiwan This is an accident of history and a quirk of the English translation. Though the official language in English is described as "Standard Chinese," in Mandarin it's written as 國語, which just means "national language." The National Language described is Taiwanese Mandarin, 華語, which translates in English usually as Mandarin Language. By some measures it's very similar but it's different enough to deserve a different name, and the efforts of Taiwanese people to separate their culture from that of the PRC, and their ROC ancestors that came from the territory of the PRC, is a valid effort and should be acknowledged. Give it another 40 years or so and the languages will be quite distinct, as Taiwanese consciously incorporate more Hokkien, Hakka, and the various indigenous languages into their version of Mandarin to form a unique cultural identity. > The Mainland is a well established concept when talking about China. And people will happily, and inaccurately, describe the UK as "Britain" or "England," much to the annoyance of people who prefer to maintain their own unique cultural identity within the UK. In Taiwan this issue is even more critical as the sovereignty of the nation is under attack from many angles, including linguistically and culturally. There is no country on earth called The Mainland, and there is no country on earth called China, and CPC efforts to engage in cultural imperialism by casting a wide net around the concept of China and Chinese, as well as lay claims to historical Chinese imperial territories, and furthermore to imply that Taiwan is a PRC territory by calling the PRC the "mainland" (thus Taiwan as a province or colony), should be actively resisted.
  - DiogenesKynikos 3y ago
    > This is an accident of history and a quirk of the English translation. It's not an accident of history. The Nationalists and the Communists had many similar influences (e.g., Sun Yat-Sen is revered by both). One of the ideas they shared in common was the idea of creating a national language. The PRC basically adopted the standardized form of Chinese developed by the ROC. > Give it another 40 years or so and the languages will be quite distinct I'm not so sure about this, given the amount of cultural interchange across the strait. Speaking in a more Taiwanese way is actually quite popular in mainland China, where it's considered cute. > There is no country on earth called The Mainland I'm not going to get into the entire nationalist dispute here. "The Mainland" marks out a well defined geographic area that's not quite synonymous with the PRC.

boredhedgehog 3y ago

> Google could allow one to select the writing system I'm not sure their models have a concept of writing systems. I noticed that neither Google Translate nor DeepL understand the equivalence of katakana and hiragana in Japanese. Probably every character is just an independent token to them.

4cao 3y ago

If, as you are claiming, the Taiwanese don't have their own Taiwanese Mandarin, with their language being just the same as the Mandarin used in China, how can it be that at the same time they also don't get to have a say in what constitutes the "standard" of that "common" language they share with the "mainland?" Also, there is no reason for constantly calling it "Mainland China" where you could just as well call it "China," unless it is to further a political agenda. Anyway, this is all beside the point. The concept of a "standard" language is political not linguistic. If Google is run as a business, not a political entity, their linguistic choices should reflect the language actually being used in any given market, and not be based on purported "standards" promulgated elsewhere. The same simple concept that somehow already works well for other language pairs that could be construed as similar to the point of being the same should also be applied here.

DiogenesKynikos 3y ago
> If, as you are claiming, the Taiwanese don't have their own Taiwanese Mandarin, with their language being just the same as the Mandarin used in China This is like saying the Canadians and the Americans each have their own unique language. They speak the same language, with small dialectal differences, and small differences in official standards (semi-official, in the case of the US). The internal differences in Mandarin as spoken in different regions of China are far larger than the differences between the ROC and PRC standards. In the case of the PRC and ROC (now commonly known as "Taiwan"), the PRC standard is derived from the ROC standard, so emphasizing the differences is somewhat strange. They're very closely related to one another. > Also, there is no reason for constantly calling it "Mainland China" where you could just as well call it "China," unless it is to further a political agenda. "Mainland China" and "China" are not synonymous. Mainland China comprises the provinces of the mainland and Hainan. However you define China, at a minimum, it also contains Hong Kong and Macau, which are not part of "Mainland China." Hong Kong notably uses traditional characters, and it has slightly different standards than Taiwan. > If Google is run as a business, not a political entity, their linguistic choices should reflect the language actually being used in any given market, and not be based on purported "standards" promulgated elsewhere. Google's Chinese translations are so utterly terrible that this entire discussion is almost moot. I seriously doubt that Google is trying very hard to adhere to any particular standard version of Chinese. If you want decent Chinese <-> English translations, use DeepL.