3 ms·

Pro-natal policies are a drop in the bucket compared to the fact that basics like housing costs 10x more than with the previous high-baby-having generations

bobthepanda 3y ago
Also the standard of raising kids has risen a lot as well. It is fairly easy to have a lot of malnourished illiterate children, but people choose to have healthy kids they send to college, which is a lot more time consuming and expensive.
JumpCrisscross 3y ago
> basics like housing costs 10x more than with the previous high-baby-having generations Thank you. I'm a millionaire. I want kids. I see no near-term path to having them without their costs rivaling that of financing multi-million dollar boats [1]. The fundamental problem is children are extremely expensive, particularly for the ambitious. (I'm putting aside the enormous liabilities that arise from e.g. one's child being disabled or trans or simply rebellious in some parts of the country.) [1] https://cpag.org.uk/sites/default/files/CPAG%20Cost%20of%20a%20Child%202012_1.pdf https://cpag.org.uk/sites/default/files/CPAG%20Cost%20of%20a... page 8
- oliwarner 3y ago
  Housing costs are much higher, but you still need to live somewhere. An extra bedroom or two isn't a ×10 increase, it's ×1.2. Even at £200k (allowing some inflation since 2012), that's leveled over two decades. Obviously that blossoms then explodes if you fall into the fashion trap of assuming price means quality, particularly for schooling. But these are largely optional costs. Relocating for better state schooling often also grants more affordable housing, at the cost of commuting. If you're already a million up, there are many option. Even if that is somehow equivalent to your yacht, if that's the springs-to-mind opportunity cost, do you actually want children? Or would you rather have a boat?
DeathArrow 3y ago
People have historically lived in a much severe poverty than now, yet the birth rates were much better.
- jdrek1 3y ago
  Only due to contraceptions not being a thing for most of history.
sershe 3y ago
Price to income ratios before covid were within normal variation, not even 25% higher than normal iirc. Easy to find sources I'm on my phone:) they are a bit higher now but birth rates were low before, too. Of course the fact that the developing countries/ poorer immigrants / poorer past generations / poorer but religious groups within countries / you name it, have higher rates should make this obvious. I personally don't have kids because for me, they would be a pointless boring chore. But I guess many fellow coastal bubble dwellers cannot admit it and need a cope ;) An anecdote, someone from Russia asked me how big our house was when we bought it after getting married. Without going into the details, that was the smallest house we were possibly considering for 2 people, I said 1100sqft. They said, oooh, so you are planning to have many children then, with so much space! Nope, we are just spoiled ;)

bobthepanda 3y ago

Also the standard of raising kids has risen a lot as well. It is fairly easy to have a lot of malnourished illiterate children, but people choose to have healthy kids they send to college, which is a lot more time consuming and expensive.

JumpCrisscross 3y ago

> basics like housing costs 10x more than with the previous high-baby-having generations Thank you. I'm a millionaire. I want kids. I see no near-term path to having them without their costs rivaling that of financing multi-million dollar boats [1]. The fundamental problem is children are extremely expensive, particularly for the ambitious. (I'm putting aside the enormous liabilities that arise from e.g. one's child being disabled or trans or simply rebellious in some parts of the country.) [1] https://cpag.org.uk/sites/default/files/CPAG%20Cost%20of%20a%20Child%202012_1.pdf https://cpag.org.uk/sites/default/files/CPAG%20Cost%20of%20a... page 8

oliwarner 3y ago
Housing costs are much higher, but you still need to live somewhere. An extra bedroom or two isn't a ×10 increase, it's ×1.2. Even at £200k (allowing some inflation since 2012), that's leveled over two decades. Obviously that blossoms then explodes if you fall into the fashion trap of assuming price means quality, particularly for schooling. But these are largely optional costs. Relocating for better state schooling often also grants more affordable housing, at the cost of commuting. If you're already a million up, there are many option. Even if that is somehow equivalent to your yacht, if that's the springs-to-mind opportunity cost, do you actually want children? Or would you rather have a boat?

DeathArrow 3y ago

People have historically lived in a much severe poverty than now, yet the birth rates were much better.

jdrek1 3y ago
Only due to contraceptions not being a thing for most of history.

sershe 3y ago

Price to income ratios before covid were within normal variation, not even 25% higher than normal iirc. Easy to find sources I'm on my phone:) they are a bit higher now but birth rates were low before, too. Of course the fact that the developing countries/ poorer immigrants / poorer past generations / poorer but religious groups within countries / you name it, have higher rates should make this obvious. I personally don't have kids because for me, they would be a pointless boring chore. But I guess many fellow coastal bubble dwellers cannot admit it and need a cope ;) An anecdote, someone from Russia asked me how big our house was when we bought it after getting married. Without going into the details, that was the smallest house we were possibly considering for 2 people, I said 1100sqft. They said, oooh, so you are planning to have many children then, with so much space! Nope, we are just spoiled ;)