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So the US was lobbying for the action that would advance US interests? No way!

by xxpor 3y ago

alejohausner 3y ago
How does the war in Ukraine advance US interests? The US helped provoke Putin's invasion of Ukraine, by trying to get Ukraine to join NATO. How is it in the best interests of the US to instigate a war against Russia? Back in 1962, the Soviets put missiles in Cuba, infringing the US sphere of influence. The US retaliated with a blockade. Moving NATO to the doorstep of Russia is analogous. Not surprisingly, the Russians retaliated with force. Of course Putin is a corrupt thug, but you don't go poking a bear with a stick and then complain when he slashes you with his claws.
- gmerc 3y ago
  The idea that Putin needed to be provoked and acted out of self defense is tankie fan fiction. They ran out of stuff to give their elites after the annexation of Crimea and needed more. Russia is not the USSR, Ukraine is not part of an aligned block (however forced) but a separate country. Stop making the equivalent excuse of “she was wearing skimpy clothes and provoking me”, a rapist is a rapist and a war criminal is a war criminal.
  - alejohausner 3y ago
    I didn't say that Putin is a nice guy. Regardless of how despicable he may be, his actions are understandable. They're not just senseless violence. That's the point I'm trying to make.
    - Clent 3y ago
      Even a serial killer can give sense to their actions.
    - KptMarchewa 3y ago
      Yes, they are understandable - enlarging the empire, however, they have nothing reactive or relevant to "being provoked" in them.
    - gmerc 3y ago
      It’s as understandable as Amazon CEO going into your shop, burning it down, raping your daughter, abducting your children because you decided to make a business partnership with Google. In a “well, I understand, Jeff actually owned my ass” and I’m not an autonomous person but his property because my dad was his dads indentured servant once” kind of way understandable. Oh and you gave him your shotgun 20 years back because he promised security guarantees but since then already invaded and annexed your patio and constantly kept making threats. The same way of understanding that people extended for Hitlers need for Lebensraum. He was literally forced to invade Poland, right? It’s understandable to fascists rejecting the rule of law and craving rule of the strongest because they think they’d win in that scenario.
    - shapefrog 3y ago
      > his actions are understandable if you can see this, why would you not see the american actions as "understandable"
  - CrackerNews 3y ago
    Speaking of cables, there were leaked US diplomatic cables warning about instability in Ukraine if it were to join NATO. https://www.businessinsider.com/wikileaks-russia-cable-2014-5 https://www.businessinsider.com/wikileaks-russia-cable-2014-... Not to justify the invasion, but the concerns were known back in 2008.
    - gmerc 3y ago
      And that excuses war, rape and pillaging how?
      - binarray2000 3y ago
        [flagged]
        gmerc 3y ago
        [flagged]
- 0xDEF 3y ago
  >The US helped provoke Putin's invasion of Ukraine, by trying to get Ukraine to join NATO Why do these blatant Russian lies keep getting posted here? Putin and many other Russian warmongers consider Ukraine to be a "fake nation", a "historical mistake", that should not exist. The bullshit about "NATO neo-Nazis" is just propaganda aimed at a foreign audience.
- CrackerNews 3y ago
  For one, Ukraine used to have Russian business interests but now that's considered poison, there is room for US businesses to move in. Blackrock, for example, is helping out with war reconstruction. https://www.cnbc.com/2022/12/28/zelenskyy-blackrock-ceo-fink-agree-to-coordinate-ukraine-investment.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/12/28/zelenskyy-blackrock-ceo-fink...
LatteLazy 3y ago
The US has a weird habit of supporting shitty regimes for short term, small gains. Then being shocked when they turn out to be big problems in the medium term. You tell me: would you rather have a slightly more self interested democracy in Pakistan OR continue with a totally self interested, money hole, dictatorship that hid Osama Bin Laden? You see the exact same thing in Saudi: short term small gains and long term enormous costs. And the inverse with (say) India: refusing to bow to all US demands means the world's largest democracy is basically rejected in favour of its theocratic military junta neighbour... I actually think this is the last remnants of secrecy in government: in few other areas can the executive secretly do dumb shit. But they can here. So they do. But that does not make it any less dumb...

So the US was lobbying for the action that would advance US interests? No way!

by xxpor 3y ago

So the US was lobbying for the action that would advance US interests? No way!

How does the war in Ukraine advance US interests? The US helped provoke Putin's invasion of Ukraine, by trying to get Ukraine to join NATO. How is it in the best interests of the US to instigate a war against Russia? Back in 1962, the Soviets put missiles in Cuba, infringing the US sphere of influence. The US retaliated with a blockade. Moving NATO to the doorstep of Russia is analogous. Not surprisingly, the Russians retaliated with force. Of course Putin is a corrupt thug, but you don't go poking a bear with a stick and then complain when he slashes you with his claws.

gmerc 3y ago
The idea that Putin needed to be provoked and acted out of self defense is tankie fan fiction. They ran out of stuff to give their elites after the annexation of Crimea and needed more. Russia is not the USSR, Ukraine is not part of an aligned block (however forced) but a separate country. Stop making the equivalent excuse of “she was wearing skimpy clothes and provoking me”, a rapist is a rapist and a war criminal is a war criminal.
- alejohausner 3y ago
  I didn't say that Putin is a nice guy. Regardless of how despicable he may be, his actions are understandable. They're not just senseless violence. That's the point I'm trying to make.
  - Clent 3y ago
    Even a serial killer can give sense to their actions.
  - KptMarchewa 3y ago
    Yes, they are understandable - enlarging the empire, however, they have nothing reactive or relevant to "being provoked" in them.
  - gmerc 3y ago
    It’s as understandable as Amazon CEO going into your shop, burning it down, raping your daughter, abducting your children because you decided to make a business partnership with Google. In a “well, I understand, Jeff actually owned my ass” and I’m not an autonomous person but his property because my dad was his dads indentured servant once” kind of way understandable. Oh and you gave him your shotgun 20 years back because he promised security guarantees but since then already invaded and annexed your patio and constantly kept making threats. The same way of understanding that people extended for Hitlers need for Lebensraum. He was literally forced to invade Poland, right? It’s understandable to fascists rejecting the rule of law and craving rule of the strongest because they think they’d win in that scenario.
  - shapefrog 3y ago
    > his actions are understandable if you can see this, why would you not see the american actions as "understandable"
- CrackerNews 3y ago
  Speaking of cables, there were leaked US diplomatic cables warning about instability in Ukraine if it were to join NATO. https://www.businessinsider.com/wikileaks-russia-cable-2014-5 https://www.businessinsider.com/wikileaks-russia-cable-2014-... Not to justify the invasion, but the concerns were known back in 2008.
  - gmerc 3y ago
    And that excuses war, rape and pillaging how?
    - binarray2000 3y ago
      [flagged]
      - gmerc 3y ago
        [flagged]
0xDEF 3y ago
>The US helped provoke Putin's invasion of Ukraine, by trying to get Ukraine to join NATO Why do these blatant Russian lies keep getting posted here? Putin and many other Russian warmongers consider Ukraine to be a "fake nation", a "historical mistake", that should not exist. The bullshit about "NATO neo-Nazis" is just propaganda aimed at a foreign audience.
CrackerNews 3y ago
For one, Ukraine used to have Russian business interests but now that's considered poison, there is room for US businesses to move in. Blackrock, for example, is helping out with war reconstruction. https://www.cnbc.com/2022/12/28/zelenskyy-blackrock-ceo-fink-agree-to-coordinate-ukraine-investment.html https://www.cnbc.com/2022/12/28/zelenskyy-blackrock-ceo-fink...

LatteLazy 3y ago

The US has a weird habit of supporting shitty regimes for short term, small gains. Then being shocked when they turn out to be big problems in the medium term. You tell me: would you rather have a slightly more self interested democracy in Pakistan OR continue with a totally self interested, money hole, dictatorship that hid Osama Bin Laden? You see the exact same thing in Saudi: short term small gains and long term enormous costs. And the inverse with (say) India: refusing to bow to all US demands means the world's largest democracy is basically rejected in favour of its theocratic military junta neighbour... I actually think this is the last remnants of secrecy in government: in few other areas can the executive secretly do dumb shit. But they can here. So they do. But that does not make it any less dumb...