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The matter of "fairness and/or arbitrariness" is entirely subjectivist. Visiting a foreign culture is always a dance across a minefield if you are careless and

The matter of "fairness and/or arbitrariness" is entirely subjectivist. Visiting a foreign culture is always a dance across a minefield if you are careless and don't bother researching how to be a proper guest. For example, experienced tourists from my country visiting the US recommend thoroughly researching the rules and protocol of interacting with the police, including properly managing your body language and being VERY conscious about not making unconscious moves you might be used to (moving your hands, reaching for pockets or gloves compartment) - all that just so that you don't get accidentally shot and killed (completely legally!) Is it a fascist police state, or just a different set of expected behavior patterns?

ImPostingOnHN 3y ago
> Is it a fascist police state, or just a different set of expected behavior patterns? it's closer to the first one: fascist police that's unfortunately absolutely something all people in the US have to worry about the threat of them organizing and doing so as a result of you displeasing the government, however, is far more remote in the US than in China in essence, China presents just another, higher and more abstracted level of unchecked arbitrary exercise of power, and thus you logically must concern yourself with those higher level threats as well as the lower level ones
southernplaces7 3y ago
>Is it a fascist police state, or just a different set of expected behavior patterns? Unequivocally yes, it absolutely is a fascist police state by any definition of the notion, even when compared to other notoriously authoritarian states. Sure, many countries have their flaws and legal quirks, but to claim legal ambiguity about the status of China despite absolute mountains of evidence to the contrary on all kinds of scales is either a case of utter ignorance or flagrant dishonesty. China is the 21st century's closest example of a pre-genocide Nazi-type state in the sense of it being an economically successful major power with plenty of international influence while blatantly repressing millions of people based on their ethnicity or religious affiliation, while also obliging the rest of its population into a constant state of Gleichschaltung, or roughly, "coordination" as the Nazis called their version of it.
- nyokodo 3y ago
  > a pre-genocide Nazi-type state The CCP treatment of the Uighur is unequivocally a genocide. They are not pre-genocide anything.
- foverzar 3y ago
  > Nazi-type > Nazi It gets harder and harder to take this kind of rhetorics seriously these days, especially the last few years - everyone labels everyone else they don't like as "nazis". This is borderline Nazi apologizm. They recycled people into furniture, butchered millions based on genetics alone. I honestly couldn't care less for that westsplaining about China at this point (or any other culture European civilization considers foreign), especially after seeing how does the receiving end of some darker western politics looks like. Honestly, that xenophobic supremacism is so tiresome. Being an outside observer I hardly see white European descendants doing too much better. What I do see is extreme circejeeking, projections and boring 2 minutes hate at every other corner, while having disappointingly little substance to show for, when you visit and check out their way of living personally.
  - southernplaces7 3y ago
    First: Yes, while comparisons to nazis can become tiresome, China sincerely does fit the bill, at least as far as the Nazi state before the second world war goes. Imprisoning and socially repressing millions of uyghurs can be described in few other fitting ways. Maybe Stalin's mass repressions of nationalities fit too, but that's hardly a morally better comparison. Second: I don't give a shit what the west did in its past or how anyone is ignoring that. It doesn't change the basic realities of how the Chinese state, now, today, treats a certain minority in its borders (and outside them too) and how it controls the rest of its population. The history of the west is irrelevant in the context of condemning a current repression and to say that this repression shouldn't be called out because of some past event by another culture to which someone belongs is ridiculous. As for "westplaining" what the hell are you even talking about? What a cheap label for shutting down legitimate arguments about specific real events happening now that fully deserve condemnation.
defrost 3y ago
> For example, experienced tourists from my country visiting the US Australia? Even for a caucasian woman from a long term ally in both war and security, interactions with trigger happy US police can be fatal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Justine_Damond https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Justine_Damond
- refurb 3y ago
  I'm not sure I'd call a rare occurrence where the US courts are prosecuting the perpetrator anything similar to a state-sanctioned system of oppression.
  - defrost 3y ago
    Each and every rare occurrence of a US police shooting goes toward the US having the highest per capita police killing stats in the G20. Compare the per capita deaths at the hands of the police figures for the US against the UK, Australia, France, Germany, Japan, etc. There's a staggering jump. Once again the US excels.
    - refurb 3y ago
      You realize the US could be the highest, but it's still exceptionally rare right? 1,100 in 2022. So about 2.5% of the chance of dying in a car accident. I don't wake up worried about dying in a car accident.
      - defrost 3y ago
        It's exceptionally rare in other civilised countries, in the USA it's an order of magnitude more common. You've somehow normalised your own employees killing your own citizens.
        refurb 3y ago
        It's not "orders of magnitude bigger". Canada is half of the US per capita rate. So is Luxembourg. Are Canada and Luxembourg "uncivilized"? And an exceptionally rare event that is 2-10x more common is still exceptionally rare. Don't scare monger.

ImPostingOnHN 3y ago

> Is it a fascist police state, or just a different set of expected behavior patterns? it's closer to the first one: fascist police that's unfortunately absolutely something all people in the US have to worry about the threat of them organizing and doing so as a result of you displeasing the government, however, is far more remote in the US than in China in essence, China presents just another, higher and more abstracted level of unchecked arbitrary exercise of power, and thus you logically must concern yourself with those higher level threats as well as the lower level ones

southernplaces7 3y ago

>Is it a fascist police state, or just a different set of expected behavior patterns? Unequivocally yes, it absolutely is a fascist police state by any definition of the notion, even when compared to other notoriously authoritarian states. Sure, many countries have their flaws and legal quirks, but to claim legal ambiguity about the status of China despite absolute mountains of evidence to the contrary on all kinds of scales is either a case of utter ignorance or flagrant dishonesty. China is the 21st century's closest example of a pre-genocide Nazi-type state in the sense of it being an economically successful major power with plenty of international influence while blatantly repressing millions of people based on their ethnicity or religious affiliation, while also obliging the rest of its population into a constant state of Gleichschaltung, or roughly, "coordination" as the Nazis called their version of it.

nyokodo 3y ago
> a pre-genocide Nazi-type state The CCP treatment of the Uighur is unequivocally a genocide. They are not pre-genocide anything.
foverzar 3y ago
> Nazi-type > Nazi It gets harder and harder to take this kind of rhetorics seriously these days, especially the last few years - everyone labels everyone else they don't like as "nazis". This is borderline Nazi apologizm. They recycled people into furniture, butchered millions based on genetics alone. I honestly couldn't care less for that westsplaining about China at this point (or any other culture European civilization considers foreign), especially after seeing how does the receiving end of some darker western politics looks like. Honestly, that xenophobic supremacism is so tiresome. Being an outside observer I hardly see white European descendants doing too much better. What I do see is extreme circejeeking, projections and boring 2 minutes hate at every other corner, while having disappointingly little substance to show for, when you visit and check out their way of living personally.
- southernplaces7 3y ago
  First: Yes, while comparisons to nazis can become tiresome, China sincerely does fit the bill, at least as far as the Nazi state before the second world war goes. Imprisoning and socially repressing millions of uyghurs can be described in few other fitting ways. Maybe Stalin's mass repressions of nationalities fit too, but that's hardly a morally better comparison. Second: I don't give a shit what the west did in its past or how anyone is ignoring that. It doesn't change the basic realities of how the Chinese state, now, today, treats a certain minority in its borders (and outside them too) and how it controls the rest of its population. The history of the west is irrelevant in the context of condemning a current repression and to say that this repression shouldn't be called out because of some past event by another culture to which someone belongs is ridiculous. As for "westplaining" what the hell are you even talking about? What a cheap label for shutting down legitimate arguments about specific real events happening now that fully deserve condemnation.

defrost 3y ago

> For example, experienced tourists from my country visiting the US Australia? Even for a caucasian woman from a long term ally in both war and security, interactions with trigger happy US police can be fatal: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Justine_Damond https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killing_of_Justine_Damond

refurb 3y ago
I'm not sure I'd call a rare occurrence where the US courts are prosecuting the perpetrator anything similar to a state-sanctioned system of oppression.
- defrost 3y ago
  Each and every rare occurrence of a US police shooting goes toward the US having the highest per capita police killing stats in the G20. Compare the per capita deaths at the hands of the police figures for the US against the UK, Australia, France, Germany, Japan, etc. There's a staggering jump. Once again the US excels.
  - refurb 3y ago
    You realize the US could be the highest, but it's still exceptionally rare right? 1,100 in 2022. So about 2.5% of the chance of dying in a car accident. I don't wake up worried about dying in a car accident.
    - defrost 3y ago
      It's exceptionally rare in other civilised countries, in the USA it's an order of magnitude more common. You've somehow normalised your own employees killing your own citizens.
      - refurb 3y ago
        It's not "orders of magnitude bigger". Canada is half of the US per capita rate. So is Luxembourg. Are Canada and Luxembourg "uncivilized"? And an exceptionally rare event that is 2-10x more common is still exceptionally rare. Don't scare monger.