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As someone who lives in Canada. You don’t have to pay in this circumstance as far as I can tell. This happened to me with UPS and they sent me to a collection a

As someone who lives in Canada. You don’t have to pay in this circumstance as far as I can tell. This happened to me with UPS and they sent me to a collection agency who I then asked for proof of the debt. Haven’t heard a peep since. I think if it happens enough, UPS will require prepayment for future packages. You can also refuse delivery. The real scam is the brokerage fees that they tack on to the taxes. For an item worth $40 cad you will end up paying about $20 in brokerage fees on top of taxes for ground packages. The only way to avoid it is to know that the package is coming and clear it yourself before it arrives, which can only be done in person if you aren’t a broker.

542458 3y ago
> which can only be done in person if you aren’t a broker And IIRC there are something less than a couple dozen in-person locations nationwide where you can do so. Many people live hundreds of KMs from the nearest office. It’s infuriating - all you’re doing is filing some paperwork and giving a credit card payment. There’s no reason it couldn’t be done online.
- rekabis 3y ago
  > there are something less than a couple dozen in-person locations nationwide About ⅔ of Canadians live within 2hrs drive of a Canadian Border Services office. This drops to about 56% of all Canadians if you limit it to a one-hour drive. And there are a recorded 1,200 such manned offices across Canada. Not all of them handle self-clearing, mind you, as some are special-purpose offices that are not accessible to the public at large. But the vast majority do. These CBS offices can be found at any border crossing, international airport, and harbour that has regularly-scheduled dockings of international ships, even cargo ships. There are 117 land border offices, 43 airport offices, and 393 marine offices in Canada alone.
  - mitthrowaway2 3y ago
    Not all Canadians drive! But even so, a 2-hour round-trip drive is a lot of effort to save $20 on brokerage fees.
  - 542458 3y ago
    A four or even two hour round trip does not seem like a reasonable ask, especially given that this is a form that could easily be completed online. I don't have to drive hours to file my taxes. > And there are a recorded 1,200 such manned offices across Canada. Not all of them handle self-clearing, mind you... I was under the impression that self clearing specifically required an inland office, of which there are 50 across the country. I'm not alone in this - google "how to self clear goods Canada" and you'll get all sorts of advice saying you need very specific types of CBSA offices. I would also highlight that none of this is made particularly clear on the CBSA website - there's no page on "how to clear your goods" that I was able to find.
  - dghlsakjg 3y ago
    So 10 million people have to drive 2 hours plus to avoid paying shipper’s outrageous fees? Seems like a broken system.
johnwalkr 3y ago
I haven't lived in Canada for a while, but what typically happened to me when living in Canada and ordering things from the US from private sellers or small companies was: 1. I chose the cheapest shipping option and would be hit by "customs fees" which was actually reasonable taxes or even no taxes for a small item, but with a brokerage fee added upon delivery. Small text was added to the invoice to make it plausibly seem like all fees were taxes to be blamed on the government, not on UPS or Fedex. 2. After realizing what brokerage fees were and doing research, I chose shipping which was a bit more expensive but included the paperwork and fees. 3. I would get hit with brokerage fees anyway because ebay shippers and small companies unilaterally changed shipping to the cheaper option for their own benefit to pocket the difference or for a perceived benefit to me. 4. As an added bonus, sometimes a private seller helpfully shipped without an invoice for the goods, or even put and inflated value in the shipping documents "just in case for insurance" and I would get hit with tax on the inflated value. People using ebay or online shopping a lot back then (approx 2000-2012) would figure things out and know the blame was with sellers, UPS and Fedex. But I remember for years people around me placing the blame only on the Canadian government.
- avereveard 3y ago
  That used to happen a lot, so much I started refusing packages that arrived with a different vector than the one I selected. It's annoying because almost every e-commerce on earth didn't track in the order shipping options, but on the other hand you don't need to wait for shipment you can already work out for the tracking number if there's something wonky and cancel from there.
rekabis 3y ago
> You don’t have to pay in this circumstance as far as I can tell. If you accept the package in a way where they pay the import taxes for you (you are not paying the government directly, they pay first then you pay them), it does indeed become your problem. They conducted a service on your behalf, with the expectation that you will compensate them, and the brokerage fees represent their labour in paying for you. Once or twice not paying those brokerage fees you could probably get away with, but eventually they’ll hold packages back until you have paid off all arrears + interest and penalties. There is another way available to a small majority of Canadians: If you live near a border crossing or international airport or harbour that regularly docks international ships, you will have a Canadian Border Services (CBS) office near you. This means you can self-clear any package, thereby avoiding brokerage fees. The method is thus: 1. Refuse to accept the package from the shipper, tell them to hold it at the local distribution centre where you will pick it up later as you want to self-clear it personally. Ask for the Bill of Lading (BoL), which is a piece of paper attached to the package that defines the shipper, receiver, and contents of the package (usually itemized and $-valued). Some shippers call it something different, with other shippers you need to fill out an online form to be sent this document. 2. Within 24-48 hrs (2 work days), go to your local CBS office with your BoL, and if the BoL does not specify the value of the goods (preferably itemized), include any receipts or invoices you saved from the purchase. The CBS officers will calculate import taxes from those amounts and provide you with a BoL-linked invoice for that payment that includes all shipping numbers. 3. Provide to the shipping company the CBS form indicating that you have paid the import taxes directly to the government. This means that the shipping company will be reimbursed for its tax payment on that shipment, nullifying your obligation to pay the brokerage fees. Some (UPS) will demand that it be faxed in to a head office number (yes, even in 2023). Ask nicely, and the CBS officers may do it for you. Other shipping companies (FedEx) only need to see it when you pick up the package, as they’ll scan it into their records at that time. Presto, no brokerage fees paid! Good luck. And my condolences to anyone without a CBS office within easy travel distance.
- jean-bonneau 3y ago
  > If you accept the package in a way where they pay the import taxes for you (you are not paying the government directly, they pay first then you pay them), it does indeed become your problem. They conducted a service on your behalf, with the expectation that you will compensate them, and the brokerage fees represent their labour in paying for you. What happens is they drop a package on your porch without giving you a chance to refuse the package and clear it yourself. They have to give you that opportunity by law. It would be similar to showing up at your house, cleaning your windows and then sending you bill. You never asked for that service, in the case of UPS you never agreed for them to act as your broker to clear your package.

542458 3y ago

> which can only be done in person if you aren’t a broker And IIRC there are something less than a couple dozen in-person locations nationwide where you can do so. Many people live hundreds of KMs from the nearest office. It’s infuriating - all you’re doing is filing some paperwork and giving a credit card payment. There’s no reason it couldn’t be done online.

rekabis 3y ago
> there are something less than a couple dozen in-person locations nationwide About ⅔ of Canadians live within 2hrs drive of a Canadian Border Services office. This drops to about 56% of all Canadians if you limit it to a one-hour drive. And there are a recorded 1,200 such manned offices across Canada. Not all of them handle self-clearing, mind you, as some are special-purpose offices that are not accessible to the public at large. But the vast majority do. These CBS offices can be found at any border crossing, international airport, and harbour that has regularly-scheduled dockings of international ships, even cargo ships. There are 117 land border offices, 43 airport offices, and 393 marine offices in Canada alone.
- mitthrowaway2 3y ago
  Not all Canadians drive! But even so, a 2-hour round-trip drive is a lot of effort to save $20 on brokerage fees.
- 542458 3y ago
  A four or even two hour round trip does not seem like a reasonable ask, especially given that this is a form that could easily be completed online. I don't have to drive hours to file my taxes. > And there are a recorded 1,200 such manned offices across Canada. Not all of them handle self-clearing, mind you... I was under the impression that self clearing specifically required an inland office, of which there are 50 across the country. I'm not alone in this - google "how to self clear goods Canada" and you'll get all sorts of advice saying you need very specific types of CBSA offices. I would also highlight that none of this is made particularly clear on the CBSA website - there's no page on "how to clear your goods" that I was able to find.
- dghlsakjg 3y ago
  So 10 million people have to drive 2 hours plus to avoid paying shipper’s outrageous fees? Seems like a broken system.

johnwalkr 3y ago

I haven't lived in Canada for a while, but what typically happened to me when living in Canada and ordering things from the US from private sellers or small companies was: 1. I chose the cheapest shipping option and would be hit by "customs fees" which was actually reasonable taxes or even no taxes for a small item, but with a brokerage fee added upon delivery. Small text was added to the invoice to make it plausibly seem like all fees were taxes to be blamed on the government, not on UPS or Fedex. 2. After realizing what brokerage fees were and doing research, I chose shipping which was a bit more expensive but included the paperwork and fees. 3. I would get hit with brokerage fees anyway because ebay shippers and small companies unilaterally changed shipping to the cheaper option for their own benefit to pocket the difference or for a perceived benefit to me. 4. As an added bonus, sometimes a private seller helpfully shipped without an invoice for the goods, or even put and inflated value in the shipping documents "just in case for insurance" and I would get hit with tax on the inflated value. People using ebay or online shopping a lot back then (approx 2000-2012) would figure things out and know the blame was with sellers, UPS and Fedex. But I remember for years people around me placing the blame only on the Canadian government.

avereveard 3y ago
That used to happen a lot, so much I started refusing packages that arrived with a different vector than the one I selected. It's annoying because almost every e-commerce on earth didn't track in the order shipping options, but on the other hand you don't need to wait for shipment you can already work out for the tracking number if there's something wonky and cancel from there.

rekabis 3y ago

> You don’t have to pay in this circumstance as far as I can tell. If you accept the package in a way where they pay the import taxes for you (you are not paying the government directly, they pay first then you pay them), it does indeed become your problem. They conducted a service on your behalf, with the expectation that you will compensate them, and the brokerage fees represent their labour in paying for you. Once or twice not paying those brokerage fees you could probably get away with, but eventually they’ll hold packages back until you have paid off all arrears + interest and penalties. There is another way available to a small majority of Canadians: If you live near a border crossing or international airport or harbour that regularly docks international ships, you will have a Canadian Border Services (CBS) office near you. This means you can self-clear any package, thereby avoiding brokerage fees. The method is thus: 1. Refuse to accept the package from the shipper, tell them to hold it at the local distribution centre where you will pick it up later as you want to self-clear it personally. Ask for the Bill of Lading (BoL), which is a piece of paper attached to the package that defines the shipper, receiver, and contents of the package (usually itemized and $-valued). Some shippers call it something different, with other shippers you need to fill out an online form to be sent this document. 2. Within 24-48 hrs (2 work days), go to your local CBS office with your BoL, and if the BoL does not specify the value of the goods (preferably itemized), include any receipts or invoices you saved from the purchase. The CBS officers will calculate import taxes from those amounts and provide you with a BoL-linked invoice for that payment that includes all shipping numbers. 3. Provide to the shipping company the CBS form indicating that you have paid the import taxes directly to the government. This means that the shipping company will be reimbursed for its tax payment on that shipment, nullifying your obligation to pay the brokerage fees. Some (UPS) will demand that it be faxed in to a head office number (yes, even in 2023). Ask nicely, and the CBS officers may do it for you. Other shipping companies (FedEx) only need to see it when you pick up the package, as they’ll scan it into their records at that time. Presto, no brokerage fees paid! Good luck. And my condolences to anyone without a CBS office within easy travel distance.

jean-bonneau 3y ago
> If you accept the package in a way where they pay the import taxes for you (you are not paying the government directly, they pay first then you pay them), it does indeed become your problem. They conducted a service on your behalf, with the expectation that you will compensate them, and the brokerage fees represent their labour in paying for you. What happens is they drop a package on your porch without giving you a chance to refuse the package and clear it yourself. They have to give you that opportunity by law. It would be similar to showing up at your house, cleaning your windows and then sending you bill. You never asked for that service, in the case of UPS you never agreed for them to act as your broker to clear your package.