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I mastered both FreeHand and Fireworks instead of Photoshop and Illustrator. Such bad luck. I loved them both. I remember the first time I bought he Macromedia

I mastered both FreeHand and Fireworks instead of Photoshop and Illustrator. Such bad luck. I loved them both. I remember the first time I bought he Macromedia Suite. It seemed so expensive to me at the time. Flash, Fireworks, and FreeHand. I could probably still run circles in the MX versions just based on muscle memory.

postmodest 3y ago
I very firmly feel that Aldus[!!!] FreeHand had the better vector drawing UX than Illustrator, and I still feel that way even though I've used Illustrator exclusively for the last 25 years
- spikej 3y ago
  It was far more intuitive and the vector drawings copied over flawlessly to Flash. Illustrator drawings copy/pasted always had issues.
- adfm 3y ago
  Agreed. They bought the superior tool and killed it off. Fireworks is still lamented by many. There’s a reason Adobe bought Figma. Wonder how long it takes before they kill that off. Affinity might not have feature parity, but they do pro level tools at a price that should make any business consider jumping ship as belts tighten.
  - postmodest 3y ago
    Affinity does 80% of what I need, though its interface for some things is very ...unique. But when I need that 80%... or even just the 1% of Illustrator that is "text on paths, done right", there I am, paying the rent to the feudal lords.
- antod 3y ago
  I sometimes pine for Aldus Photostyler and its clone tool.
dylan604 3y ago
In college, my roommate was taking classes learning Freehand and Illustrator. Each version release would leapfrog the other product. Being industrious, I did all of my roommate's assignments on my own, and I learned the apps on his tuition. I didn't do his work for him. I just did it to learn. I was only able to do this because of a.b.m.a. I still use that knowledge from his classes on a daily basis.
- snypher 3y ago
  May I ask what is a.b.m.a. in this context?
  - dylan604 3y ago
    alt.binaries.mac.applications It’s essentially a shibboleth at this point
    - tambourine_man 3y ago
      Dylan604… Would that by any chance be a reference to Apple's flavor of Lisp and a version of the PPC?
      - dylan604 3y ago
        I can't tell if you're joking or not, so on the chance you are not...No.
        tambourine_man 3y ago
        I was serious. PPC 604 and Dylan, the language. By mentioning a.b.m.a. I took you for an old school Mac user, like me.
        dylan604 3y ago
        sorry, but no that's not the origin. 604 => Goa but otherwise, yes, i'm an old school mac head since Apple II days
Lammy 3y ago
> Such bad luck. Not just luck — Adobe were fighting dirty with a look-and-feel lawsuit against Macromedia for use of tabbed palettes: https://web.archive.org/web/20010516014855/http://www.adobefacts.com/ https://web.archive.org/web/20010516014855/http://www.adobef... “Adobe's tabbed palette, used throughout Adobe's products, are being copied by Macromedia® in many of its products, including Macromedia® Flash™ 5, Dreamweaver®, FreeHand® and Fireworks® software.” Compare the infringing tabbed palettes of Flash 5 to the non-infringing (vertically-stacked) palettes of Flash MX: - https://www.webdesignmuseum.org/old-software/macromedia-flash/macromedia-flash-5-0 https://www.webdesignmuseum.org/old-software/macromedia-flas... - https://www.webdesignmuseum.org/old-software/macromedia-flash/macromedia-flash-mx https://www.webdesignmuseum.org/old-software/macromedia-flas...
- mesh 3y ago
  fyi, Macromedia had a counter law suit, and both eventually settled. https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2002-jul-30-fi-techbrfs30.1-story.html https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2002-jul-30-fi-techb... (fyi, I worked for Macromedia, and work for Adobe).
- User23 3y ago
  I'm kind of surprised Apple didn't sue literally everyone for ripping off the MacPaint interface. I know they had the more general Look-and-feel lawsuit against MicroSoft, but they didn't seem to capitalize on Bill's great UI innovations.
  - oblio 3y ago
    Don't think they did it out of the goodness of their hearts. Adobe and partially Microsoft were the only things keeping Apple alive in the early to late 90s. Apple was cornered in the creative market, and even slowly failing at that. Antagonizing Adobe could have meant them pulling out of the Mac market and probably bankrupting Apple. Microsoft had a deal to keep Office running on Macs, I think they got cash and Apple shares.
    - mschuster91 3y ago
mruniverse 3y ago
Seemed like you always needed a trio of main apps. In the graphic design market of the 90s, it was Quark, Photoshop and Illustrator. To a lesser extent it was Pagemaker, Photoshop and Freehand.
- WillAdams 3y ago
  Quark actually had at least one bundling w/ Freehand, and some folks used Macromedia XRes instead of Photoshop.
  - julianz 3y ago
    XRes was interesting, it would do all the imaging operations at reduced resolution to make them work quickly, and then when you saved the document it would perform all the actual work at full res. It sort of worked, but saving could appear to be really slow.
- JakeAl 3y ago
  Quark was awesome. Best layout program ever. Still haven't used anything as good.
- justinator 3y ago
  The only thing I remember about Quark is that Quark 4 seemed super outdated and old, but it's what the industry standardized on and Quark 5 totally bombed. And the alien. I was sure I was going to use PageMaker for 10 hours a day for the rest of my life but you learn a little HTML and you realized that I wasn't ever going to be the next David Carson (NO ONE would ever be the next David Carson) so f- it.
- crabbone 3y ago
  This is very dependent on the country or language of your audience, but also Apple computers availability. In Israel, for example, FreeHand was by far the most popular tool for vector editing because of easier integration with right-to-left writing. Former Soviet Union countries almost exclusively relied on CorelDraw. Not sure why, but my guess is it was somehow easier to pirate it. Pagemaker was always garbage compared to QuarkXPress or even Corel Ventura. But Adobe really improved on it with InDesign, and a lot of places I knew who used Quark promptly switched. FreeHand was particularly useful because of its integration with Flash. A lot of animation shops would use FreeHand because it was a better editor than Flash, but then import drawings into Flash for animation. Also, every one of the editors had sort of a recognizable style. Adobe Illustrator was perceived as being more "prestigious", "imported" and most people I knew at the time who used it were Mac users (which was expensive for an artist) so that also probably left a mark.
da02 3y ago
What do you use currently in place of Fireworks?
- smegsicle 3y ago
  yeah i need to get at the master for python's logo https://www.python.org/community/logos/ https://www.python.org/community/logos/
- themagician 3y ago
  Nothing, really. I just abandoned 1:1 pixel design all together, because that's how I used Fireworks. I would do everything based on pixel ratios between objects. It kind of defined my art style since everything was geometric to some extent. Now I'll just sorta eyeball everything in Photoshop or Illustrator. Affinity Designer seems to actually get kinda close to the OG Fireworks, at least on the surface, but I haven't really used it much, just casually played around with it.
- draxofavalon 3y ago
  I still use Fireworks CS6
adamrezich 3y ago
Fireworks was the shit!
bjelkeman-again 3y ago
I am surprised nobody has tried to create a drawing program that tries to be more like Freehand, after all this time. I would buy a copy in a flash. What other alternatives are there, I really can’t get on with Illustrator.
- wlesieutre 3y ago
  Affinity Designer is one, but I can’t say how much it’s like Freehand
  - bjelkeman-again 3y ago
    Thanks for the pointer. Searching around the term Affinity Designer I found out that Belight, which makes other software I use (and are Ukrainian, double win) also make this, which I will try out. https://amadine.com/ https://amadine.com/
JakeAl 3y ago
Fireworks was the best. Not compared to the crazy stuff Photoshop can do these days with 3D models and all that AI wizardry, but unlike Photoshop Fireworks could be used to draw box with a border using it's shape tool like Visio. I would use it to create web layouts for what would become DIVs in web design. And then there's Director, which was pretty powerful at the time they retired it. I think I still have a copy of the final version. Nothing beats that stacked timeline with scriptable frames and how it ultimately made it into Flash (formerly FutureSplash). Those were the days. I think I still have all the digital books for those products.

postmodest 3y ago

I very firmly feel that Aldus[!!!] FreeHand had the better vector drawing UX than Illustrator, and I still feel that way even though I've used Illustrator exclusively for the last 25 years

spikej 3y ago
It was far more intuitive and the vector drawings copied over flawlessly to Flash. Illustrator drawings copy/pasted always had issues.
adfm 3y ago
Agreed. They bought the superior tool and killed it off. Fireworks is still lamented by many. There’s a reason Adobe bought Figma. Wonder how long it takes before they kill that off. Affinity might not have feature parity, but they do pro level tools at a price that should make any business consider jumping ship as belts tighten.
- postmodest 3y ago
  Affinity does 80% of what I need, though its interface for some things is very ...unique. But when I need that 80%... or even just the 1% of Illustrator that is "text on paths, done right", there I am, paying the rent to the feudal lords.
antod 3y ago
I sometimes pine for Aldus Photostyler and its clone tool.

dylan604 3y ago

In college, my roommate was taking classes learning Freehand and Illustrator. Each version release would leapfrog the other product. Being industrious, I did all of my roommate's assignments on my own, and I learned the apps on his tuition. I didn't do his work for him. I just did it to learn. I was only able to do this because of a.b.m.a. I still use that knowledge from his classes on a daily basis.

snypher 3y ago
May I ask what is a.b.m.a. in this context?
- dylan604 3y ago
  alt.binaries.mac.applications It’s essentially a shibboleth at this point
  - tambourine_man 3y ago
    Dylan604… Would that by any chance be a reference to Apple's flavor of Lisp and a version of the PPC?
    - dylan604 3y ago
      I can't tell if you're joking or not, so on the chance you are not...No.
      - tambourine_man 3y ago
        I was serious. PPC 604 and Dylan, the language. By mentioning a.b.m.a. I took you for an old school Mac user, like me.
        dylan604 3y ago
        sorry, but no that's not the origin. 604 => Goa but otherwise, yes, i'm an old school mac head since Apple II days

Lammy 3y ago

> Such bad luck. Not just luck — Adobe were fighting dirty with a look-and-feel lawsuit against Macromedia for use of tabbed palettes: https://web.archive.org/web/20010516014855/http://www.adobefacts.com/ https://web.archive.org/web/20010516014855/http://www.adobef... “Adobe's tabbed palette, used throughout Adobe's products, are being copied by Macromedia® in many of its products, including Macromedia® Flash™ 5, Dreamweaver®, FreeHand® and Fireworks® software.” Compare the infringing tabbed palettes of Flash 5 to the non-infringing (vertically-stacked) palettes of Flash MX: - https://www.webdesignmuseum.org/old-software/macromedia-flash/macromedia-flash-5-0 https://www.webdesignmuseum.org/old-software/macromedia-flas... - https://www.webdesignmuseum.org/old-software/macromedia-flash/macromedia-flash-mx https://www.webdesignmuseum.org/old-software/macromedia-flas...

mesh 3y ago
fyi, Macromedia had a counter law suit, and both eventually settled. https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2002-jul-30-fi-techbrfs30.1-story.html https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-xpm-2002-jul-30-fi-techb... (fyi, I worked for Macromedia, and work for Adobe).
User23 3y ago
I'm kind of surprised Apple didn't sue literally everyone for ripping off the MacPaint interface. I know they had the more general Look-and-feel lawsuit against MicroSoft, but they didn't seem to capitalize on Bill's great UI innovations.
- oblio 3y ago
  Don't think they did it out of the goodness of their hearts. Adobe and partially Microsoft were the only things keeping Apple alive in the early to late 90s. Apple was cornered in the creative market, and even slowly failing at that. Antagonizing Adobe could have meant them pulling out of the Mac market and probably bankrupting Apple. Microsoft had a deal to keep Office running on Macs, I think they got cash and Apple shares.
  - mschuster91 3y ago

mruniverse 3y ago

Seemed like you always needed a trio of main apps. In the graphic design market of the 90s, it was Quark, Photoshop and Illustrator. To a lesser extent it was Pagemaker, Photoshop and Freehand.

WillAdams 3y ago
Quark actually had at least one bundling w/ Freehand, and some folks used Macromedia XRes instead of Photoshop.
- julianz 3y ago
  XRes was interesting, it would do all the imaging operations at reduced resolution to make them work quickly, and then when you saved the document it would perform all the actual work at full res. It sort of worked, but saving could appear to be really slow.
JakeAl 3y ago
Quark was awesome. Best layout program ever. Still haven't used anything as good.
justinator 3y ago
The only thing I remember about Quark is that Quark 4 seemed super outdated and old, but it's what the industry standardized on and Quark 5 totally bombed. And the alien. I was sure I was going to use PageMaker for 10 hours a day for the rest of my life but you learn a little HTML and you realized that I wasn't ever going to be the next David Carson (NO ONE would ever be the next David Carson) so f- it.
crabbone 3y ago
This is very dependent on the country or language of your audience, but also Apple computers availability. In Israel, for example, FreeHand was by far the most popular tool for vector editing because of easier integration with right-to-left writing. Former Soviet Union countries almost exclusively relied on CorelDraw. Not sure why, but my guess is it was somehow easier to pirate it. Pagemaker was always garbage compared to QuarkXPress or even Corel Ventura. But Adobe really improved on it with InDesign, and a lot of places I knew who used Quark promptly switched. FreeHand was particularly useful because of its integration with Flash. A lot of animation shops would use FreeHand because it was a better editor than Flash, but then import drawings into Flash for animation. Also, every one of the editors had sort of a recognizable style. Adobe Illustrator was perceived as being more "prestigious", "imported" and most people I knew at the time who used it were Mac users (which was expensive for an artist) so that also probably left a mark.

da02 3y ago

What do you use currently in place of Fireworks?

smegsicle 3y ago
yeah i need to get at the master for python's logo https://www.python.org/community/logos/ https://www.python.org/community/logos/
themagician 3y ago
Nothing, really. I just abandoned 1:1 pixel design all together, because that's how I used Fireworks. I would do everything based on pixel ratios between objects. It kind of defined my art style since everything was geometric to some extent. Now I'll just sorta eyeball everything in Photoshop or Illustrator. Affinity Designer seems to actually get kinda close to the OG Fireworks, at least on the surface, but I haven't really used it much, just casually played around with it.
draxofavalon 3y ago
I still use Fireworks CS6

adamrezich 3y ago

Fireworks was the shit!

bjelkeman-again 3y ago

I am surprised nobody has tried to create a drawing program that tries to be more like Freehand, after all this time. I would buy a copy in a flash. What other alternatives are there, I really can’t get on with Illustrator.

wlesieutre 3y ago
Affinity Designer is one, but I can’t say how much it’s like Freehand
- bjelkeman-again 3y ago
  Thanks for the pointer. Searching around the term Affinity Designer I found out that Belight, which makes other software I use (and are Ukrainian, double win) also make this, which I will try out. https://amadine.com/ https://amadine.com/

JakeAl 3y ago

Fireworks was the best. Not compared to the crazy stuff Photoshop can do these days with 3D models and all that AI wizardry, but unlike Photoshop Fireworks could be used to draw box with a border using it's shape tool like Visio. I would use it to create web layouts for what would become DIVs in web design. And then there's Director, which was pretty powerful at the time they retired it. I think I still have a copy of the final version. Nothing beats that stacked timeline with scriptable frames and how it ultimately made it into Flash (formerly FutureSplash). Those were the days. I think I still have all the digital books for those products.