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I'd be interested to hear hypotheses for why this program did not reach its intended effect. I'm also curious what the effect would be if teenage boys were incl

I'd be interested to hear hypotheses for why this program did not reach its intended effect. I'm also curious what the effect would be if teenage boys were included. It seems like a major missing element.

joenathanone 3y ago
Theory, the simulation is a poor reflection of reality; Accurately simulating what it would be like to care for a baby is beyond our current technology.
- jimbob45 3y ago
  Really? I feel like flour babies were pretty effective for as far as you’d want to go with middle schoolers (I.e. no sleep deprivation).
  - lotsofpulp 3y ago
    What is the point of infant simulation if the one of the most impactful part would be skipped? The biggest parts of having a baby, for the mom mostly: 1) physical changes and pains during pregnancy, including lack of sleep 2) physical changes and pains during childbirth, including episiotomy/C section, and dealing with that recovery process 3) while this is all going on, you have to teach this baby to breastfeed. Which then leads to engorgement and other pains for the mom, at least for a few weeks. And all of this is happening while you are on very broken sleep schedules. And assuming you do not have to worry about income/rent/etc.
  - xboxnolifes 3y ago
    If the point of the simulation was to deter pregnancies, I don't see how it could be successful without the biggest struggles of raising children being included. After all, people are willing to have children even when they are aware of these struggles, so reducing the struggles even a little would make having children seem more appealing, not less. Hell, it's possible that teenagers naturally have a larger than reality aversion to having children, and these simulations break down the aversion, increasing pregnancies.
- el_benhameen 3y ago
  I don’t think it’s beyond our technology, but it would be deeply unethical to lock a bunch of teenagers in a house and subject them to sleep deprivation and screaming for weeks on end.
  - btilly 3y ago
    Would a temporary donation of cranky toddlers in their terrible 2s be unethical? Sadly, the shock of being in such a weird situation would likely calm the toddlers down.
    - el_benhameen 3y ago
      Interesting idea. I imagine that “spend 2 hours telling a toddler ‘no’” would be a pretty effective deterrent exercise.
anon291 3y ago
Many (most?) teenage mothers intend to be teenage mothers and like babies and probably have a history of caring for them. They're thinking about how great it would be to have a baby, and likely fully want one. The problem is not that babies aren't great, it's that a teenage girl has no perspective as to how making such a decision at such a young age is going to affect her life negatively. Making them take care of a fake baby likely stimulates the exact same part of their brain that makes them want to have a baby. Sort of like how my wife (or myself, if I'm being honest) will see a cute baby and, despite having already had the experience of having children and knowing full well how difficult they can be, will ecstatically exclaim 'Wouldn't it be great to have another baby?' Except, as adults, we can make a decision to have or not have a child with some perspective and some modicum of self control. Whereas if you induce the same feeling in a teenage girl, she might just go ahead and do it without thinking, as teenagers are apt to do.
- andrepd 3y ago
  >Many (most?) teenage mothers intend to be teenage mothers [citation fucking needed]. I'd be highly surprised if that was indeed the case.
  - anon291 3y ago
    My mom was a teacher in a poor neighborhood. The way girls in my neighborhood felt and the way girls in my mom's school felt were completely at odds. The girls at my mom's school often wanted to be mothers and would tell my mom that. Whereas the girls in my neighborhood had their eyes set on careers, later marriage, etc. I went to school somewhat near my mom's station and I knew several girls in classmate's families who also wanted to be mothers. This is heavily cultural, and some cultures strongly emphasize family life (especially mothers), and these often are the ones in which you'll find a lot of teenage mothers. In my mom's case, her school was heavily hispanic. Hispanic culture deifies mothers and many teenage / pre-teen girls saw becoming a mother as a way to escape the drudgeries of life and be turned into 'mother'. Of course, they didn't always think about the other sides of it. Now, I realize this study is in Australia, but Hispanic culture is hardly unique in this area. Many cultures greatly celebrate mothers and motherhood and don't have the same cultural prohibition on teenage parenthood / emphasis on post-high-school education. And before everyone gets all mad and cries racist, we are also of Latin stock. EDIT: You seem very surprised that any girl may want a baby as a teenager, but I assure you they exist. Unfortunately, I cannot find direct research on the topic. However, I did find this documentary tracing women who wanted to have babies as teenagers and were happy about it: https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/jan/10/were-glad-we-chose-to-be-mothers-in-our-teens https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/jan/10/were-gl... . Hopefully this at least proves that such people exist. More sources: https://www.jrf.org.uk/report/planned-teenage-pregnancy-views-and-experiences-young-people-poor-and-disadvantaged https://www.jrf.org.uk/report/planned-teenage-pregnancy-view... ^ This one in particular substantiates my hypothesis as "Many mothers spoke of their love of babies, often heightened by experience caring for other children."
bglazer 3y ago
Other commenters are suggesting stories about cultural values and teenagers actively wanting to be mothers. That may or may not be true. The simplest explanation is that the infant simulators just do not have an effect one way or the other. There's no need to say the infant simulator *increases* desire for pregnancy. I think it's more likely it doesn't effect attitudes much at all, but standard health education actually suppresses teenage pregnancy. So, the study sees the apparent increase in pregnancy with the simulator program, when compared to the somewhat effective health education.
friend_and_foe 3y ago
Not scientific at all but my view is they're not taking our animal nature into account, it's possible that these simulations make them want to have a baby, "baby fever" and all that. Or maybe the simulations are easier than raising a baby and so they think "this is no big deal" and start acting irresponsibly. Do we know why the programs are in these particular schools and not in the control group? It's possible that the schools were initially selected for the programs because they had a higher risk rate already, it's quite possible it is lower than it was before the programs which would mean that they are in fact effective. The methodology of this study isn't airtight. It's important to note, the study considers abortions to be indicative of failure of the programs and counts abortions before the age of 20 as pregnancies, whereas they could (to put it lightly) be indicative of a desire not to have kids, demonstrating the efficacy of the programs. Not entirely accurate, because you'd expect the same in the schools without the programs, but I'd be interested in seeing the numbers without abortions included in them.

joenathanone 3y ago

Theory, the simulation is a poor reflection of reality; Accurately simulating what it would be like to care for a baby is beyond our current technology.

jimbob45 3y ago
Really? I feel like flour babies were pretty effective for as far as you’d want to go with middle schoolers (I.e. no sleep deprivation).
- lotsofpulp 3y ago
  What is the point of infant simulation if the one of the most impactful part would be skipped? The biggest parts of having a baby, for the mom mostly: 1) physical changes and pains during pregnancy, including lack of sleep 2) physical changes and pains during childbirth, including episiotomy/C section, and dealing with that recovery process 3) while this is all going on, you have to teach this baby to breastfeed. Which then leads to engorgement and other pains for the mom, at least for a few weeks. And all of this is happening while you are on very broken sleep schedules. And assuming you do not have to worry about income/rent/etc.
- xboxnolifes 3y ago
  If the point of the simulation was to deter pregnancies, I don't see how it could be successful without the biggest struggles of raising children being included. After all, people are willing to have children even when they are aware of these struggles, so reducing the struggles even a little would make having children seem more appealing, not less. Hell, it's possible that teenagers naturally have a larger than reality aversion to having children, and these simulations break down the aversion, increasing pregnancies.
el_benhameen 3y ago
I don’t think it’s beyond our technology, but it would be deeply unethical to lock a bunch of teenagers in a house and subject them to sleep deprivation and screaming for weeks on end.
- btilly 3y ago
  Would a temporary donation of cranky toddlers in their terrible 2s be unethical? Sadly, the shock of being in such a weird situation would likely calm the toddlers down.
  - el_benhameen 3y ago
    Interesting idea. I imagine that “spend 2 hours telling a toddler ‘no’” would be a pretty effective deterrent exercise.

anon291 3y ago

Many (most?) teenage mothers intend to be teenage mothers and like babies and probably have a history of caring for them. They're thinking about how great it would be to have a baby, and likely fully want one. The problem is not that babies aren't great, it's that a teenage girl has no perspective as to how making such a decision at such a young age is going to affect her life negatively. Making them take care of a fake baby likely stimulates the exact same part of their brain that makes them want to have a baby. Sort of like how my wife (or myself, if I'm being honest) will see a cute baby and, despite having already had the experience of having children and knowing full well how difficult they can be, will ecstatically exclaim 'Wouldn't it be great to have another baby?' Except, as adults, we can make a decision to have or not have a child with some perspective and some modicum of self control. Whereas if you induce the same feeling in a teenage girl, she might just go ahead and do it without thinking, as teenagers are apt to do.

andrepd 3y ago
>Many (most?) teenage mothers intend to be teenage mothers [citation fucking needed]. I'd be highly surprised if that was indeed the case.
- anon291 3y ago
  My mom was a teacher in a poor neighborhood. The way girls in my neighborhood felt and the way girls in my mom's school felt were completely at odds. The girls at my mom's school often wanted to be mothers and would tell my mom that. Whereas the girls in my neighborhood had their eyes set on careers, later marriage, etc. I went to school somewhat near my mom's station and I knew several girls in classmate's families who also wanted to be mothers. This is heavily cultural, and some cultures strongly emphasize family life (especially mothers), and these often are the ones in which you'll find a lot of teenage mothers. In my mom's case, her school was heavily hispanic. Hispanic culture deifies mothers and many teenage / pre-teen girls saw becoming a mother as a way to escape the drudgeries of life and be turned into 'mother'. Of course, they didn't always think about the other sides of it. Now, I realize this study is in Australia, but Hispanic culture is hardly unique in this area. Many cultures greatly celebrate mothers and motherhood and don't have the same cultural prohibition on teenage parenthood / emphasis on post-high-school education. And before everyone gets all mad and cries racist, we are also of Latin stock. EDIT: You seem very surprised that any girl may want a baby as a teenager, but I assure you they exist. Unfortunately, I cannot find direct research on the topic. However, I did find this documentary tracing women who wanted to have babies as teenagers and were happy about it: https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/jan/10/were-glad-we-chose-to-be-mothers-in-our-teens https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2015/jan/10/were-gl... . Hopefully this at least proves that such people exist. More sources: https://www.jrf.org.uk/report/planned-teenage-pregnancy-views-and-experiences-young-people-poor-and-disadvantaged https://www.jrf.org.uk/report/planned-teenage-pregnancy-view... ^ This one in particular substantiates my hypothesis as "Many mothers spoke of their love of babies, often heightened by experience caring for other children."

bglazer 3y ago

Other commenters are suggesting stories about cultural values and teenagers actively wanting to be mothers. That may or may not be true. The simplest explanation is that the infant simulators just do not have an effect one way or the other. There's no need to say the infant simulator *increases* desire for pregnancy. I think it's more likely it doesn't effect attitudes much at all, but standard health education actually suppresses teenage pregnancy. So, the study sees the apparent increase in pregnancy with the simulator program, when compared to the somewhat effective health education.

friend_and_foe 3y ago

Not scientific at all but my view is they're not taking our animal nature into account, it's possible that these simulations make them want to have a baby, "baby fever" and all that. Or maybe the simulations are easier than raising a baby and so they think "this is no big deal" and start acting irresponsibly. Do we know why the programs are in these particular schools and not in the control group? It's possible that the schools were initially selected for the programs because they had a higher risk rate already, it's quite possible it is lower than it was before the programs which would mean that they are in fact effective. The methodology of this study isn't airtight. It's important to note, the study considers abortions to be indicative of failure of the programs and counts abortions before the age of 20 as pregnancies, whereas they could (to put it lightly) be indicative of a desire not to have kids, demonstrating the efficacy of the programs. Not entirely accurate, because you'd expect the same in the schools without the programs, but I'd be interested in seeing the numbers without abortions included in them.