4 ms·

> It's not the FE that's attractive, it's that they're people who put very little value on social conformity and thus can be honest in a way that "fit ins" can'

> It's not the FE that's attractive, it's that they're people who put very little value on social conformity and thus can be honest in a way that "fit ins" can't. There's a marvelous video [1] that Dan Olsen of Folding Ideas did as a deep dive into the community of Flat Earth and how it manages to survive. The TL;DW (though it really is worth the watch) is that people both want and need community, and all communities have ways of signaling that you belong to them. Sometimes it's language, sometimes it's clothes, sometimes it's behaviors--the "qualifications" vary wildly by group, but in many cases from the outside the exhibited behaviors of a group (e.g., believing in flat earth) don't jive with the rest of the perceived individual (e.g., scientifically literate) until you factor in that the behaviors don't have to matter beyond ensuring membership to a group. A whole lot of things make a lot more sense to me when seen through that lens, including a lot of organized religion. People just want to belong, and often the "price of entry" is inconsequential vs. the payoff of belonging somewhere. Thanks for sharing your story. It helps me to understand the "Why" of some of these things, and helps me feel more connected to my fellow beings. [1]: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTfhYyTuT44 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JTfhYyTuT44

slim 3y ago
so it's a cult. where believing in wacky things is a rite you have to accomplish to prove your commitment to the community. the wackier, the stronger is the bond
- tenacious_tuna 3y ago
  > so it's a cult Sure, I'd call flat earth a cult, but I'd say the say of most organized religions too, but I was deliberately avoiding putting OP on the defensive by using labels with such strong connotations. My point was more that this effect is common across ALL human groups--it's the defining factor of what a group IS, and it's useful to remember when people's behavior doesn't otherwise make sense. I think the same dynamics are true of most political movements, or things like astrology. Yes, by the definition of "saying weird stuff to prove your membership", they all sound like cults, but the point is that in a lot of cases it doesn't matter, and it isn't useful to make inferences about the person behind the statement (e.g. "believes in flat earth" == "totally scientifically illiterate") without also considering the groupthink pressures. I say that more as a "know thy enemy" kinda thing--so often I've tried arguing with people in these groups and made no progress and came out more confused than when I went in because I was missing the factor that many people don't hold those beliefs tightly, or those who do hold it to access the social benefits, so coming at their position from a purely logical perspective is unlikely to change their minds or epistemology--and that's doubly true if you put them on the defensive by calling them a cultist out of the gate.
  - lusus_naturae 3y ago
    Organized religions and groups designated as cults are patently not the same. There are properties inherent to major religions that enable their followers to create socially mature and stable communities, where the members of these communities can attain self-actualization in some manner even if they're not adherents. I am aware of the problems that these major religions have (on a personal level as well), but history provides plenty of evidence in support of the usefulness major religions have provided. People will always feel the need to belong to groups, but all groups and cultures do not produce the same level of social, communal and personal stability, and pretending otherwise is a huge disservice to the giants whose shoulders we stand on and also dangerous narrative for impressionable people. I am not even religious, but memey hot takes like saying major religions are the same as woo woo cults is just wrong.

slim 3y ago

so it's a cult. where believing in wacky things is a rite you have to accomplish to prove your commitment to the community. the wackier, the stronger is the bond

tenacious_tuna 3y ago
> so it's a cult Sure, I'd call flat earth a cult, but I'd say the say of most organized religions too, but I was deliberately avoiding putting OP on the defensive by using labels with such strong connotations. My point was more that this effect is common across ALL human groups--it's the defining factor of what a group IS, and it's useful to remember when people's behavior doesn't otherwise make sense. I think the same dynamics are true of most political movements, or things like astrology. Yes, by the definition of "saying weird stuff to prove your membership", they all sound like cults, but the point is that in a lot of cases it doesn't matter, and it isn't useful to make inferences about the person behind the statement (e.g. "believes in flat earth" == "totally scientifically illiterate") without also considering the groupthink pressures. I say that more as a "know thy enemy" kinda thing--so often I've tried arguing with people in these groups and made no progress and came out more confused than when I went in because I was missing the factor that many people don't hold those beliefs tightly, or those who do hold it to access the social benefits, so coming at their position from a purely logical perspective is unlikely to change their minds or epistemology--and that's doubly true if you put them on the defensive by calling them a cultist out of the gate.
- lusus_naturae 3y ago
  Organized religions and groups designated as cults are patently not the same. There are properties inherent to major religions that enable their followers to create socially mature and stable communities, where the members of these communities can attain self-actualization in some manner even if they're not adherents. I am aware of the problems that these major religions have (on a personal level as well), but history provides plenty of evidence in support of the usefulness major religions have provided. People will always feel the need to belong to groups, but all groups and cultures do not produce the same level of social, communal and personal stability, and pretending otherwise is a huge disservice to the giants whose shoulders we stand on and also dangerous narrative for impressionable people. I am not even religious, but memey hot takes like saying major religions are the same as woo woo cults is just wrong.