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I think the main problem is that ordinary people don't even see what problems self-hosting is supposed to address; and those that do, still need to dedicate sig

I think the main problem is that ordinary people don't even see what problems self-hosting is supposed to address; and those that do, still need to dedicate significant time and effort to "tinkering", even when handed a huge chunk of the solution on a plate. Another huge problem is that there's a home network between your product and the user's other devices; most home networks are utter crap, and often even tech-savvy people don't have a whole lot of control over it (I hate my ISP's modem with passion). This seriously limits your potential to provide an excellent UX; IMHO it's the UX that makes or breaks a product for "the rest of us". I used to self-host a whole bunch of things on a VPS, including my blog, git repos, a DIY blogroll / RSS reader, etc. In the end I've decided it was not worth the effort; the blog was moved to Netlify, repos to Github, and the RSS kludge got swapped for NetNewsWire with iCloud sync. I was paying €5 for the VPS, yet now I'm paying Apple €20 to host my email, sync my photos, get access to the music catalogue, etc. I would definitely pay €20/mo for a box under my desk + an online service, provided it gives me similar value without much additional effort. I think the problem that KubeSail/PiBox is aiming to solve might be both too broad (run any software you like!), and too narrow (if you're an enthusiast!) at the same time. I don't want to run Miniflux; I want to have my RSS feeds synced between devices. The software that pushes the bytes (and the hardware it runs on) should be invisible - unless I decide (out of my own free will / curiosity) to pop the cover open and start tinkering. I don't think you can solve this by addressing shortcomings in a single piece of the stack. Both the layer below you (your average home network), and above you (the apps) have their own problems; some are like splinters (tiny but enough to ruin the experience), some are fundamental ("what is MySQL and why do I need to know"). I don't think it's a lost fight, but I would try to start with a vision for a more vertically integrated solution; maybe one step of that road is to eventually build your own WiFi AP/router (or even become an ISP), maybe to make a deal with Spotify (or even directly with EMI/WB/etc)... I don't think a task is too big if you can seriously challenge Apple/Amazon/Google at the end of the road.

erulabs 3y ago
I agree! Unfortunately, we pivoted to self-hosting right around the time we were running out of money, and around the time I had a child and thus, needed money. I'm really glad we pivoted to something we love and our users love, but it hardly pays the bills. I've spoken with several people who are starting similar companies and who've reached out to me (happy to do that!) - my advice is similar to yours: keep it simple, keep it focused. KubeSail is a developer tool turned home-hosting tool, but if I could rebuild it, I'd make it incredibly simple to get Jellyfin and a torrent/VPN client installed and that's about it, and then execute insanely hard on making that as streamlined and foolproof as humanly possible.
- lifty 3y ago
  So do you think there are enough people/companies willing to pay for that streamlined experience?
  - erulabs 3y ago
    I think if you could sell an as-easy-a-chromecast box that could do jellyfin, had a nice ui for uploading local media, and had an easy guide or built in VPN/torrent client, you’d be to build a great business. Of course - you can’t exactly vendor torrent stuff - and I’d never suggest anyone to pirate anything. But certainly the sky is the limit, and that’s just media. Other tools like Monica CRM, Tandoor Recipes, Mastodon, etc are their own markets too! We’re too far in the technical side to be mass appeal, and our UI/UX is far from “mom-friendly”. Still - I’m optimistic a better entrepreneur than myself will conquer this one day.
    - em-bee 3y ago
      the problem is that creating a userfriendly product before you can start earning income means a lot of upfront investment which is risky. i'd rather take a product like yours and improve it. what's stopping you from doing that?
      - erulabs 3y ago
        A nontrivial full time job, a wife, a toddler, an infant, a mortgage, and my own fatigue. I will, eventually, have the capital to continue.
  - rollcat 3y ago
    There's already a huge market for SOHO network gear, NAS / media appliances, etc. and all of that needs to be usable by non-experts. We need to ask the other question: what motivates people to self-host?
- em-bee 3y ago
  I'd make it incredibly simple to get Jellyfin and a torrent/VPN client installed and that's about it if you do that you'll have the film industry coming after you very quickly. i'd like to sell home users anything else but not that particular product.
fragmede 3y ago
> I hate my ISP's modem with passion What is their modem doing that you haven't been able to work around?
- rollcat 3y ago
  It's a modem+router+switch+AP that technically does everything you need, but does all of it badly - really just getting in my way. E.g. it obviously has a builtin DHCP server, but it won't let me set custom DNS. I want to use custom DNS, to block at least some of the ads/tracking on all of the devices on my network; so I have to disable that DHCP and use my own. But the modem resets that setting back to enabled every reboot! (Took me a while first time around to notice there's two DHCP servers on the network, argh). So I've disabled the internal AP, brought my own, and I'm connecting the rest of the network through a managed switch that blocks DHCP to the router. So I've got one device that tries to do the job of four... but instead I need three devices to do the job of one. I try not to think about it.
  - waithuh 3y ago
    I'd flash custom firmware at that point. Be aware that i suck at networking however. Is there a compatibility/hardware-related issue?
    - rollcat 3y ago
      The problem is the builtin cable modem. I don't have the parameters/credentials, I have next to zero experience wrangling DOCSIS, and frankly I just don't want to bother. Switching to fiber soon enough anyway.
  - fragmede 3y ago
    Yeah I just have hardware I like running openwrt behind the modem doing all three jobs, with Tailscale Funnel doing the job of port forwarding so I basically never need to interact with the provided modem's interface. Because you're right, it sucks.
    - 3y ago

erulabs 3y ago

I agree! Unfortunately, we pivoted to self-hosting right around the time we were running out of money, and around the time I had a child and thus, needed money. I'm really glad we pivoted to something we love and our users love, but it hardly pays the bills. I've spoken with several people who are starting similar companies and who've reached out to me (happy to do that!) - my advice is similar to yours: keep it simple, keep it focused. KubeSail is a developer tool turned home-hosting tool, but if I could rebuild it, I'd make it incredibly simple to get Jellyfin and a torrent/VPN client installed and that's about it, and then execute insanely hard on making that as streamlined and foolproof as humanly possible.

lifty 3y ago
So do you think there are enough people/companies willing to pay for that streamlined experience?
- erulabs 3y ago
  I think if you could sell an as-easy-a-chromecast box that could do jellyfin, had a nice ui for uploading local media, and had an easy guide or built in VPN/torrent client, you’d be to build a great business. Of course - you can’t exactly vendor torrent stuff - and I’d never suggest anyone to pirate anything. But certainly the sky is the limit, and that’s just media. Other tools like Monica CRM, Tandoor Recipes, Mastodon, etc are their own markets too! We’re too far in the technical side to be mass appeal, and our UI/UX is far from “mom-friendly”. Still - I’m optimistic a better entrepreneur than myself will conquer this one day.
  - em-bee 3y ago
    the problem is that creating a userfriendly product before you can start earning income means a lot of upfront investment which is risky. i'd rather take a product like yours and improve it. what's stopping you from doing that?
    - erulabs 3y ago
      A nontrivial full time job, a wife, a toddler, an infant, a mortgage, and my own fatigue. I will, eventually, have the capital to continue.
- rollcat 3y ago
  There's already a huge market for SOHO network gear, NAS / media appliances, etc. and all of that needs to be usable by non-experts. We need to ask the other question: what motivates people to self-host?
em-bee 3y ago
I'd make it incredibly simple to get Jellyfin and a torrent/VPN client installed and that's about it if you do that you'll have the film industry coming after you very quickly. i'd like to sell home users anything else but not that particular product.

fragmede 3y ago

> I hate my ISP's modem with passion What is their modem doing that you haven't been able to work around?

rollcat 3y ago
It's a modem+router+switch+AP that technically does everything you need, but does all of it badly - really just getting in my way. E.g. it obviously has a builtin DHCP server, but it won't let me set custom DNS. I want to use custom DNS, to block at least some of the ads/tracking on all of the devices on my network; so I have to disable that DHCP and use my own. But the modem resets that setting back to enabled every reboot! (Took me a while first time around to notice there's two DHCP servers on the network, argh). So I've disabled the internal AP, brought my own, and I'm connecting the rest of the network through a managed switch that blocks DHCP to the router. So I've got one device that tries to do the job of four... but instead I need three devices to do the job of one. I try not to think about it.
- waithuh 3y ago
  I'd flash custom firmware at that point. Be aware that i suck at networking however. Is there a compatibility/hardware-related issue?
  - rollcat 3y ago
    The problem is the builtin cable modem. I don't have the parameters/credentials, I have next to zero experience wrangling DOCSIS, and frankly I just don't want to bother. Switching to fiber soon enough anyway.
- fragmede 3y ago
  Yeah I just have hardware I like running openwrt behind the modem doing all three jobs, with Tailscale Funnel doing the job of port forwarding so I basically never need to interact with the provided modem's interface. Because you're right, it sucks.
  - 3y ago