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From how he describes it, it's not clear that this was descrimination against Jews specifically rather than other religions in general. Christianity gets a lot

by hnbad 3y ago

From how he describes it, it's not clear that this was descrimination against Jews specifically rather than other religions in general. Christianity gets a lot of special treatment in Germany despite the law ostensibly favoring no one religion over another. If the "seasons greetings" did not include specifically Christian messages ("Christmas" in German doesn't have "Christ" in it and Christmas Day and Easter Monday are bank holidays) I could imagine a discrimination case being hard to win, especially in the absence of unions or at the very least a works council. I'd argue it does demonstrate a very clear bias and may even be motivated by antisemitism (latent if not deliberate) but there's a difference between what's right and what's legal. Not to mention that precisely due to the influence of pro-Israel groups (and the latent antisemitism too) you probably don't want to be branded as "the Jew who cries antisemite" as that might interfere with your employability.

onli 3y ago
A blanket ban for mentioning religious holidays outside of christian holidays would fit to bavaria and would even be defendable there (there is the famous case of the crucifix being allowed in school rooms there, but no other religious symbols). It would be seen as a way to limit the attack surface when mentioning one holiday but not the other, apart from the ones which are state-wide. But that's an explainable policy then. It's the firings of the managers that don't match with that, plus the silence.
jacquesm 3y ago
Christianity has Germany in its pocket. The state even collects the tithe! Separation of state and church... come again?
- hnbad 3y ago
  Germany does not have a separation of state and church. That's not something that exists in the constitution. We have a right to freedom of religion (with a bunch of caveats) and we don't have a national religion. But that's pretty much it. Heck, the Federal Republic of Germany upon its foundation decided to uphold its end on contracts with the Catholic church dating back to the German Empire and even before that by arguing itself to be the "legal successor" of those entities. This results in a bunch of oddities like Germany literally paying money to parts of the Catholic church (for leases, debts and such), churches (and formally church-run organizations even if they're 100% state-funded) being exempt from most labor laws and yes, the tithe being collected by the German tax agency. However formally this is not specifically tied to Christianity. It's just defined in such a way making it extremely difficult for any other religious group to qualify in the same way after the fact.
  - fmajid 3y ago
    France has very strong separation of Church and State, but not in Alsace-Lorraine, a historical quirk of its annexation by Germany 1870-1918.
- onli 3y ago
  That puts it too strongly. Yes, that the german state is collecting the money for the church is strange. The biggest political party calls itself christian. Then there is the habit of having religious institutions organize public daycare (kindergarten). Even worse is the Tanzverbot, forbidding public parties around easter, as that evokes fundamentally religious countries governed by church leaders, as in Iran. But exactly that is not the case in Germany. There is no visible or noticeable influence of religious leaders, of church positions being unmoveable pillars of german politics. Many examples, divorce, abortion, same-sex marriage. With the paragraph above it is obvious that there is some influence, but it paints the wrong picture when looking at society and politics as a whole. The influence of christian fundamentalism on US politics for example is way bigger. All of this is the effect of having done the separation of church and state over a hundred years ago, 1803 and earlier, but then stopping there. Afterwards there was a coexistence, varyingly strong, but nothing more. Germans today simply aren't very religious, churches are mostly only visited on Christmas, and even then only by a small minority.
- pgeorgi 3y ago
  > The state even collects the tithe! Separation of state and church... It's a collection service to simplify processes that costs the religious or philosophical organizations who participate (not all do) about 3% of their revenue. Also, a couple of Jewish organizations participate (full list at https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirchensteuer_(Deutschland)#Kirchensteuereinzug_durch_den_Staat https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirchensteuer_(Deutschland)#Ki...)
  - jacquesm 3y ago
    It increases that revenue by a very much larger percentage because (1) it is automatic every month and (2) it is opt-out because when you register in a German town for residence your religious affiliation determines who by default will get your money. Many expats aren't even aware of this and react very surprised when I tell them about this, then they go check their docs and sure enough the church has been siphoning off their money and they are making their own private donations. And as a final insult to injury: opting out costs money! Not a lot, but still.
    - onli 3y ago
      (Sounds like you know that, for the others). You can't opt out of this, for regular income. You can only leave the church. And that can cost a bit (seems like up to 60€?), depending on where you are in Germany.
      - jacquesm 3y ago
        Right, exactly. So if you don't want to leave the church you're stuck with a fixed portion of your income taken away whether you can afford it or not. It's - from my Dutch POV - complete madness. Not that there isn't plenty of things wrong here but this particular thing about Germany really irks me.
        onli 3y ago
        The GEZ is worse ;)

by hnbad 3y ago

onli 3y ago

A blanket ban for mentioning religious holidays outside of christian holidays would fit to bavaria and would even be defendable there (there is the famous case of the crucifix being allowed in school rooms there, but no other religious symbols). It would be seen as a way to limit the attack surface when mentioning one holiday but not the other, apart from the ones which are state-wide. But that's an explainable policy then. It's the firings of the managers that don't match with that, plus the silence.

jacquesm 3y ago

Christianity has Germany in its pocket. The state even collects the tithe! Separation of state and church... come again?

hnbad 3y ago
Germany does not have a separation of state and church. That's not something that exists in the constitution. We have a right to freedom of religion (with a bunch of caveats) and we don't have a national religion. But that's pretty much it. Heck, the Federal Republic of Germany upon its foundation decided to uphold its end on contracts with the Catholic church dating back to the German Empire and even before that by arguing itself to be the "legal successor" of those entities. This results in a bunch of oddities like Germany literally paying money to parts of the Catholic church (for leases, debts and such), churches (and formally church-run organizations even if they're 100% state-funded) being exempt from most labor laws and yes, the tithe being collected by the German tax agency. However formally this is not specifically tied to Christianity. It's just defined in such a way making it extremely difficult for any other religious group to qualify in the same way after the fact.
- fmajid 3y ago
  France has very strong separation of Church and State, but not in Alsace-Lorraine, a historical quirk of its annexation by Germany 1870-1918.
onli 3y ago
That puts it too strongly. Yes, that the german state is collecting the money for the church is strange. The biggest political party calls itself christian. Then there is the habit of having religious institutions organize public daycare (kindergarten). Even worse is the Tanzverbot, forbidding public parties around easter, as that evokes fundamentally religious countries governed by church leaders, as in Iran. But exactly that is not the case in Germany. There is no visible or noticeable influence of religious leaders, of church positions being unmoveable pillars of german politics. Many examples, divorce, abortion, same-sex marriage. With the paragraph above it is obvious that there is some influence, but it paints the wrong picture when looking at society and politics as a whole. The influence of christian fundamentalism on US politics for example is way bigger. All of this is the effect of having done the separation of church and state over a hundred years ago, 1803 and earlier, but then stopping there. Afterwards there was a coexistence, varyingly strong, but nothing more. Germans today simply aren't very religious, churches are mostly only visited on Christmas, and even then only by a small minority.
pgeorgi 3y ago
> The state even collects the tithe! Separation of state and church... It's a collection service to simplify processes that costs the religious or philosophical organizations who participate (not all do) about 3% of their revenue. Also, a couple of Jewish organizations participate (full list at https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirchensteuer_(Deutschland)#Kirchensteuereinzug_durch_den_Staat https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kirchensteuer_(Deutschland)#Ki...)
- jacquesm 3y ago
  It increases that revenue by a very much larger percentage because (1) it is automatic every month and (2) it is opt-out because when you register in a German town for residence your religious affiliation determines who by default will get your money. Many expats aren't even aware of this and react very surprised when I tell them about this, then they go check their docs and sure enough the church has been siphoning off their money and they are making their own private donations. And as a final insult to injury: opting out costs money! Not a lot, but still.
  - onli 3y ago
    (Sounds like you know that, for the others). You can't opt out of this, for regular income. You can only leave the church. And that can cost a bit (seems like up to 60€?), depending on where you are in Germany.
    - jacquesm 3y ago
      Right, exactly. So if you don't want to leave the church you're stuck with a fixed portion of your income taken away whether you can afford it or not. It's - from my Dutch POV - complete madness. Not that there isn't plenty of things wrong here but this particular thing about Germany really irks me.
      - onli 3y ago
        The GEZ is worse ;)