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I'm really annoyed with ad hominems like "Anyone who thinks Apple only makes high-priced products has completely lost sense of reality." Statements like this ba

by tikhonj 15y ago

I'm really annoyed with ad hominems like "Anyone who thinks Apple only makes high-priced products has completely lost sense of reality." Statements like this basically amount to "everybody who disagrees with me is an idiot" and add nothing. All they do is annoy the reader. I really wish people would avoid them both in blog posts and comments. I've been seeing some here on HN as well and really wish they would go away.

siglesias 15y ago
It's just his dressed up version of saying "is wrong," by point of fact. And he is addressing a viewpoint that pundits have historically harbored.
seiji 15y ago
Platform matters. It's his own website. Should he really not say what he thinks? If you get annoyed by words online, you have a very unhappy life ahead of you.
Cushman 15y ago
It's not an ad hominem, it's a statement of fact. Apple has a reputation for producing expensive products which are distinguished mostly by industrial design and software rather than specs. It remains absolutely true of their peripherals and accessories, and true, though to a lesser extent, of their computers; however, in smartphones and tablets, Apple is the company that releases best-of-class hardware year after year at retail prices that their competitors have a hard time matching, let alone beating. And anyone who can't admit that is ignoring reality, yeah.
- tikhonj 15y ago
  Its accuracy or lack of accuracy doesn't really matter. Even if you are an idiot, my calling you an idiot is unwarranted.
  - catshirt 15y ago
    no one called anyone an idiot
    - tikhonj 15y ago
      Claiming somebody has "completely lost sight of reality" is similar, differing only in degree and number of words.
  - Cushman 15y ago
    Idiot is your word. Gruber said "lost sense of reality", which is what you would have to do to think that Apple only makes over-priced products. It is objectively not true.
    - vibrunazo 15y ago
      "Idiot" is an ad hominem, but "has no sense of reality" isn't? Ad Hominem is an attack on the person, regardless of which specific attack it is. Being accurate or not has nothing to do with it. If I say that you're wrong and a jew, I just made an ad hominem attack, regardless if you're actually a jew or not. That's completely uncalled for.
  - malkia 15y ago
    But he didn't say "idiot". You assumed that's what he meant to say...
  - tikhonj 15y ago
    Perhaps "idiot" was too strong a word. But my point is not about severity--it's about personal attacks in general. I did not mean to imply Gruber called anyone an idiot; rather, I was just illustrating how an ad hominem is an ad hominem regardless of accuracy.
- usaar333 15y ago
  > however, in smartphones and tablets, Apple is the company that releases best-of-class hardware year after year at retail prices that their competitors have a hard time matching, let alone beating. Half-true. It is true that competitors who build equivalently high-end products as Apple have difficulty competing on price (Apple only sells high-end). But there are Android smart-phones that sell new for $100+ less than even an iPhone 4. (unlocked, non-contract prices!) Equally you can get a kindle fire for $200 less than an iPad 2.
recoiledsnake 15y ago
>I'm really annoyed with ad hominems like "Anyone who thinks Apple only makes high-priced products has completely lost sense of reality." Statements like this basically amount to "everybody who disagrees with me is an idiot" and add nothing. All they do is annoy the reader Agreed, and most of the people who say that live in Silicon Valley sipping a $5 latte in a Starbucks with a Macbook in tow. Whereas, in countries like India, you could be working a great job, have all luxuries, even have a housemaid and the iPhone will easily set you back a months salary. Whereas, in the US, you can buy around 7 unlocked iphones with a month's salary. People's perspective is screwed up when they don't understand why everyone doesn't rush to buy Apple products. How many in the US or Europe would buy the iPhone if it was $5000 ? I am not implying Apple should lower the prices but I think the people making that claim about them not being high priced products have completely lost their sense of reality.
- wmf 15y ago
  OTOH, wasn't the iPad 1 the cheapest 10-inch tablet? So either all 10-inch tablets are luxuries or Apple is actually selling bargain-priced hardware compared to the competition.
- seanmcd 15y ago
  I really hate the uninformed India/China argument when it comes to exemplifying overpriced Apple products. Turns out, there are a lot of iPhones in New Delhi and Beijing used by a rising middle class...they even pay full unsubsidized high-tax prices for them. FYI, its not $5000, its $820 for a iPhone 4s in Beijing. Apple is already making a lot of money in China, and I'm sure they will eventually make money in India after they open up a few stores and get people off the gray market (where iPhones are sourced now). I'm dreading when the next iPad comes out in China, there will probably be yellow cow riots again.
  - recoiledsnake 15y ago
    >I really hate the uninformed India/China argument when it comes to exemplifying overpriced Apple products Really? >FYI, its not $5000, its $820 for a iPhone 4s in Beijing. I said, IMAGINE if you had pay $5000 for an iPhone in the US or Europe. It is that expensive comparatively to someone in China or India. I did not say or imply that they aren't making money, I was saying people who say they're overpriced havent "lost all touch with reality" as much the person making such an argument.
user-id 15y ago
Nice straw man.

by tikhonj 15y ago

siglesias 15y ago

It's just his dressed up version of saying "is wrong," by point of fact. And he is addressing a viewpoint that pundits have historically harbored.

seiji 15y ago

Platform matters. It's his own website. Should he really not say what he thinks? If you get annoyed by words online, you have a very unhappy life ahead of you.

Cushman 15y ago

It's not an ad hominem, it's a statement of fact. Apple has a reputation for producing expensive products which are distinguished mostly by industrial design and software rather than specs. It remains absolutely true of their peripherals and accessories, and true, though to a lesser extent, of their computers; however, in smartphones and tablets, Apple is the company that releases best-of-class hardware year after year at retail prices that their competitors have a hard time matching, let alone beating. And anyone who can't admit that is ignoring reality, yeah.

tikhonj 15y ago
Its accuracy or lack of accuracy doesn't really matter. Even if you are an idiot, my calling you an idiot is unwarranted.
- catshirt 15y ago
  no one called anyone an idiot
  - tikhonj 15y ago
    Claiming somebody has "completely lost sight of reality" is similar, differing only in degree and number of words.
- Cushman 15y ago
  Idiot is your word. Gruber said "lost sense of reality", which is what you would have to do to think that Apple only makes over-priced products. It is objectively not true.
  - vibrunazo 15y ago
    "Idiot" is an ad hominem, but "has no sense of reality" isn't? Ad Hominem is an attack on the person, regardless of which specific attack it is. Being accurate or not has nothing to do with it. If I say that you're wrong and a jew, I just made an ad hominem attack, regardless if you're actually a jew or not. That's completely uncalled for.
- malkia 15y ago
  But he didn't say "idiot". You assumed that's what he meant to say...
- tikhonj 15y ago
  Perhaps "idiot" was too strong a word. But my point is not about severity--it's about personal attacks in general. I did not mean to imply Gruber called anyone an idiot; rather, I was just illustrating how an ad hominem is an ad hominem regardless of accuracy.
usaar333 15y ago
> however, in smartphones and tablets, Apple is the company that releases best-of-class hardware year after year at retail prices that their competitors have a hard time matching, let alone beating. Half-true. It is true that competitors who build equivalently high-end products as Apple have difficulty competing on price (Apple only sells high-end). But there are Android smart-phones that sell new for $100+ less than even an iPhone 4. (unlocked, non-contract prices!) Equally you can get a kindle fire for $200 less than an iPad 2.

recoiledsnake 15y ago

>I'm really annoyed with ad hominems like "Anyone who thinks Apple only makes high-priced products has completely lost sense of reality." Statements like this basically amount to "everybody who disagrees with me is an idiot" and add nothing. All they do is annoy the reader Agreed, and most of the people who say that live in Silicon Valley sipping a $5 latte in a Starbucks with a Macbook in tow. Whereas, in countries like India, you could be working a great job, have all luxuries, even have a housemaid and the iPhone will easily set you back a months salary. Whereas, in the US, you can buy around 7 unlocked iphones with a month's salary. People's perspective is screwed up when they don't understand why everyone doesn't rush to buy Apple products. How many in the US or Europe would buy the iPhone if it was $5000 ? I am not implying Apple should lower the prices but I think the people making that claim about them not being high priced products have completely lost their sense of reality.

wmf 15y ago
OTOH, wasn't the iPad 1 the cheapest 10-inch tablet? So either all 10-inch tablets are luxuries or Apple is actually selling bargain-priced hardware compared to the competition.
seanmcd 15y ago
I really hate the uninformed India/China argument when it comes to exemplifying overpriced Apple products. Turns out, there are a lot of iPhones in New Delhi and Beijing used by a rising middle class...they even pay full unsubsidized high-tax prices for them. FYI, its not $5000, its $820 for a iPhone 4s in Beijing. Apple is already making a lot of money in China, and I'm sure they will eventually make money in India after they open up a few stores and get people off the gray market (where iPhones are sourced now). I'm dreading when the next iPad comes out in China, there will probably be yellow cow riots again.
- recoiledsnake 15y ago
  >I really hate the uninformed India/China argument when it comes to exemplifying overpriced Apple products Really? >FYI, its not $5000, its $820 for a iPhone 4s in Beijing. I said, IMAGINE if you had pay $5000 for an iPhone in the US or Europe. It is that expensive comparatively to someone in China or India. I did not say or imply that they aren't making money, I was saying people who say they're overpriced havent "lost all touch with reality" as much the person making such an argument.

user-id 15y ago

Nice straw man.