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This example is a stark reminder that the complaints are most often not about details but about class. The CEO was upset others were allowed to perform as if t

This example is a stark reminder that the complaints are most often not about details but about class. The CEO was upset others were allowed to perform as if they were of the same class. It’s always class when one boils it down, imho.

steveBK123 3y ago
Precisely. He couldn't put it into words because the words wouldn't have looked good. But the obvious complaint was what are these slobs doing in my summer resort town, dining in the same establishment as me!! Rather than stuck in downtown Manhattan in the August heat. Or - the least they could do is go to Coney Island / Jones Beach / Jersey Shore or something eating some hotdogs.
- gitfan86 3y ago
  I have not run into this attitude in tech from executives. Finance is much more of a heiracy culture I guess. I have run into this at a peer level though. I've negotiated WFH and extra vacation and have learned to keep it in the down low. They get mad at me, but I'm not the one that is their boss and I couldn't care less if they WFH.
  - ghaff 3y ago
    It certainly varies. I've had a casual relationship with senior execs (subject of course to understanding that they get to make the decisions at the end of the day). However, I've heard the stories about some senior execs that are of the mindset of "Don't make eye contact with me unless you've been spoken to." I didn't quite believe it at first because it's never been my experience but it's a thing. I haven't taken a month-long vacation for a while but when I did a few times in a long-ago role, there were definitely people who were at least a bit incredulous that I could get off with doing so.
    - benterix 3y ago
      > it's never been my experience but it's a thing Yes it is a thing. It starts when you get promoted to a more senior role. The thing is, nothing much changed inside or outside, so many people feel they need to make a point. They start to dress differently, behave differently, introduce distance - to make sure others understand who is in the "superior" position. I noticed thin in insecure types or those who need some confirmation of their value. But there are many people who are exact opposites, especially in the younger generation. They understand that being a manager doesn't mean giving orders but supporting your team in their work. It's so much easier for everybody.
      - ryandrake 3y ago
        There are executive-class perks in most medium-to-large companies, but at least in tech, they're kept on the down low so you have to kind of look for them to find them. Personal assistants are probably the most visible. Private meeting rooms / bathrooms / entrances for the executives, chauffeurs, cooks, masseuses, access to corporate jets, hard-to-get tickets to sporting / arts events, separate housing allowances and company-paid villas, personal security, lots of financial perks like wealth management tools, free tax services, deferred comp and supplemental retirement savings. But these things don't tend to get flashed in front of the worker-bees.
        selimthegrim 3y ago
        I thought it was understood executive bathrooms are for the hookers and blow.
        hgsgm 3y ago
        Almost all of those perks have been given to line techies since Google was founded.
        benterix 3y ago
        > they're kept on the down low so you have to kind of look for them to find them That's basically my point.
  - flandish 3y ago
    Have seen similar. IMHO it falls under the umbrella HR created to keep us from discussing salary, too. A completely legal (US) thing employees can do.
  - steveBK123 3y ago
    Small biz bros are worse. My wife left finance to work for a small (50-200) person business for a few years. Couple brothers that inherited it from daddy. Got all their kids / kids friends nepobaby jobs. Probably the worst scenario of business owners you can work for.
    - ghaff 3y ago
      Small businesses can have their own set of issues which are probably different than those you encounter at a big company but they can be just as bad or worse. (Oh, and if you're in business for yourself, you need to do a lot of selling and need to deal with clients directly.)
    - davidw 3y ago
      Toxic small businesses can be really toxic. There's a lot of this in northern Italy, which is actually a pretty productive, wealthy area. But they'd be better off if there was more consolidation and some new blood. Tons of companies where grandpa founded it after WWII, and worked his hands to the bone. The son inherited it, maybe went to college and grew it and improved it some, and the grandkids are all about booze and cars and women. OTOH, a good small company can be really good. Decisions get made quickly, you know most of the people and can talk with them, much less BS, and more of a sense of purpose in what you're doing there rather than being a cog. I worked in one a few years back and loved it. They are tough to find, though, as a real 'small company' is different than a startup in that they're a bit less crazy in terms of growth.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
FredPret 3y ago
Not everything is a class dynamic. “Analyst at GS hanging out in the Hamptons” doesn’t scream working class. The CEO and analyst are both upper class, just different levels of power and seniority. That CEO is just a power-tripping asshole.
- steveBK123 3y ago
  Actually its extra funny because he is, objectively, a pretty bad CEO! Probably the worst GS has ever had. He will not last much longer in the seat. The big push into consumer finance has been a complete multi-billion loss making debacle under his leadership.
- thegaulofthem 3y ago
  They may both be richer than you (they’re certainly richer than I), but they’re definitely not of the same class.
  - steveBK123 3y ago
    Yes, even well paid worker bees are still worker bees. The queen bee who owns a share of the hive, decides how many bees to hire/fire, where they work, when they work, what % of the honey to share with the worker bees, etc.. now thats a different class.
    - generic92034 3y ago
      What about managers/trainers of sports teams, if the stars of the team get a significantly higher salary? The manager/trainer might order them around, but does that make them belonging to a higher class, even if they earn way less than their "subordinates"?
      - steveBK123 3y ago
        you are misreading "owns a share of the hive, decides how many bees to hire/fire, where they work, when they work, what % of the honey to share with the worker bees" Team managers/trainers do not meet most of those criteria. At most the GM meets the majority of them. Only the team owner would meet all the criteria.
Simulacra 3y ago
and power. Being flexible and away from the office, etc. means someone is not holding power over you, i.e. requiring you to work in the office.
smeej 3y ago
So many of the comments are acting as though the underling employee actually is of a different class. I'd bet anything this young person is used to having his family name make him welcome at any table he wishes to join, even in the Hamptons. He's on the well-worn path through a brief stint as a junior analyst before he's running some bank or hedge fund somewhere and the CEO of GS hesitates to approach his table. This isn't the action of someone either boldly or naively misunderstanding his place. This is the action of someone who has grown up knowing his place is wherever he wishes it to be.
- flandish 3y ago
  Class is not salary or wealth it is position in the hierarchy of the means of production.
- steveBK123 3y ago
  You just made up a scenario that has a less than 50% probability of being true, in order to.. come to the defense of a CEO worth $100M+ ? LOL cmon man.
  - ipaddr 3y ago
    I believe part of that is true based on the location and ivy league background but also the ceo has disdain for lower ranked employees appearing in his bubble and daring to appear on the same level
  - triceratops 3y ago
    Idk that it was a defence of the CEO. Whatever class the analyst belongs to or thinks they belongs to, the CEO's behavior was clearly out of proportion.
  - johnnyanmac 3y ago
    I don't really care too much about what class X is considered, but it sure it weird trying to frame a 23YO making 200k out of college in the same sorts of language used to describe people on minimum wage barely affording rent. Do people really think the "middle class" is dead? I feel middle class is an apt descriptor for someone who is living comfortably but also still needs to work to maintain their lifestyle.
indymike 3y ago
> The CEO was upset others were allowed to perform as if they were of the same class. I doubt it. Companies that try to hire pedigree know that they are hiring from the same class. The disdain is shock from a junior not working 20 hour days and sleeping under the desk.
- polygamous_bat 3y ago
  > I doubt it. Companies that try to hire pedigree know that they are hiring from the same class. Have you ever heard the term "1% of the 1%"?
kbos87 3y ago
This is so often overlooked and it's true. I've done well enough in my career that I've learned to be very cautious about how much I let others know about my standard of living. I've had experiences in the past where someone who either is or feels like they should be doing better than I am based on what little they know about me becomes indignant and acts like the natural order of things has been upended.
derefr 3y ago
Not even. He was upset because the presence of his middle-class employee in his previously-upper-class restaurant — especially with the employee visibly performing middle-class behaviors like a lack of consideration of discretion (and then not being told to sit down by the restaurant staff!) — was tarnishing the restaurant's upper-class image, i.e. the usefulness of using eating there as an upper-class shibboleth. Or, to put that another way: if the CEO can't use "come eat with me at $place" as a way to say to investors and other CEOs that he's "one of them" and can be let in on the backchannel conversations, then why is he even eating there? It's expensive and the service is awful! He'd much rather not! Now he needs to find a new place to use to signal that!
- nebula8804 3y ago
  I would love to hear the "backchannel" conversations happening between people like Musk, Altman, the Google guys and their cronies. It often "feels" like they are planning something nefarious longterm but I can't exactly see the big picture so im not sure.
  - Macha 3y ago
    The sad thing is that when it's come out (e.g. the twitter court case), it's been shockingly vapid. And free of people challenging each other even when the ideas are so obviously bad.
    - rurp 3y ago
      Reading the text messages from that court case extinguished any questions I had about Musk and his cronies being super geniuses.
  - hgsgm 3y ago
    The are just normal people but with billions of dollars to sling around, so everything is more expensive and impressive scale.
  - BerislavLopac 3y ago
    I thought that it is quite obvious: a "new aristocracy", separate from the "masses" and protected by the law while not held accountable by it. It's not quite that there is a "master plan" and coordinated "conspiracy" -- it's simply that the humans have a tendency to protect themselves by isolating from "others". And when you have the wealth and power, this separation quickly becomes very unbalanced. In Middle Ages, this separation was based on ownership of land and societal structure which soon started being formalised in (both religious and secular) laws. Today, money has the same purpose (being a measure and store of wealth).
wonderwonder 3y ago
Exactly! It's like Musk demanding everyone comes into the office while he is only in the office at individual companies 1 or 2 times a week. CEO of Tesla, a publicly traded company spends all his time in the privately held offices of Twitter. Can other of his company employees work multiple jobs including their own personal company? If the answer is no then it's 100% a class thing
- notfromhere 3y ago
  The funniest bit to me is that Musk owning and working as the CEO of multiple companies is admitting that CEOs don’t actually do much tangible work.
  - hughesjj 3y ago
    It's even funnier when the companies he has the least day to day involvement in operate better. Musk buying Twitter was the best thing to happen to the work culture of Tesla employees.
  - hgsgm 3y ago
    He bought the company from Jack Dorsey, who did the absentee CEO thing first.
    - mikeevans 3y ago
      Yes, but Jack isn’t a micromanager.
casperb 3y ago
I am always surprised when I realize this in conversations with entrepreneurs. They explain something to me about how they “control” their employees, then I say it out loud that it seems weird to me and then they try to explain it to me like it has nothing to do with control or with class but that it is necessary. Sure. It’s mostly bullshit, class and mistrust.

steveBK123 3y ago

Precisely. He couldn't put it into words because the words wouldn't have looked good. But the obvious complaint was what are these slobs doing in my summer resort town, dining in the same establishment as me!! Rather than stuck in downtown Manhattan in the August heat. Or - the least they could do is go to Coney Island / Jones Beach / Jersey Shore or something eating some hotdogs.

gitfan86 3y ago
I have not run into this attitude in tech from executives. Finance is much more of a heiracy culture I guess. I have run into this at a peer level though. I've negotiated WFH and extra vacation and have learned to keep it in the down low. They get mad at me, but I'm not the one that is their boss and I couldn't care less if they WFH.
- ghaff 3y ago
  It certainly varies. I've had a casual relationship with senior execs (subject of course to understanding that they get to make the decisions at the end of the day). However, I've heard the stories about some senior execs that are of the mindset of "Don't make eye contact with me unless you've been spoken to." I didn't quite believe it at first because it's never been my experience but it's a thing. I haven't taken a month-long vacation for a while but when I did a few times in a long-ago role, there were definitely people who were at least a bit incredulous that I could get off with doing so.
  - benterix 3y ago
    > it's never been my experience but it's a thing Yes it is a thing. It starts when you get promoted to a more senior role. The thing is, nothing much changed inside or outside, so many people feel they need to make a point. They start to dress differently, behave differently, introduce distance - to make sure others understand who is in the "superior" position. I noticed thin in insecure types or those who need some confirmation of their value. But there are many people who are exact opposites, especially in the younger generation. They understand that being a manager doesn't mean giving orders but supporting your team in their work. It's so much easier for everybody.
    - ryandrake 3y ago
      There are executive-class perks in most medium-to-large companies, but at least in tech, they're kept on the down low so you have to kind of look for them to find them. Personal assistants are probably the most visible. Private meeting rooms / bathrooms / entrances for the executives, chauffeurs, cooks, masseuses, access to corporate jets, hard-to-get tickets to sporting / arts events, separate housing allowances and company-paid villas, personal security, lots of financial perks like wealth management tools, free tax services, deferred comp and supplemental retirement savings. But these things don't tend to get flashed in front of the worker-bees.
      - selimthegrim 3y ago
        I thought it was understood executive bathrooms are for the hookers and blow.
      - hgsgm 3y ago
        Almost all of those perks have been given to line techies since Google was founded.
      - benterix 3y ago
        > they're kept on the down low so you have to kind of look for them to find them That's basically my point.
- flandish 3y ago
  Have seen similar. IMHO it falls under the umbrella HR created to keep us from discussing salary, too. A completely legal (US) thing employees can do.
- steveBK123 3y ago
  Small biz bros are worse. My wife left finance to work for a small (50-200) person business for a few years. Couple brothers that inherited it from daddy. Got all their kids / kids friends nepobaby jobs. Probably the worst scenario of business owners you can work for.
  - ghaff 3y ago
    Small businesses can have their own set of issues which are probably different than those you encounter at a big company but they can be just as bad or worse. (Oh, and if you're in business for yourself, you need to do a lot of selling and need to deal with clients directly.)
  - davidw 3y ago
    Toxic small businesses can be really toxic. There's a lot of this in northern Italy, which is actually a pretty productive, wealthy area. But they'd be better off if there was more consolidation and some new blood. Tons of companies where grandpa founded it after WWII, and worked his hands to the bone. The son inherited it, maybe went to college and grew it and improved it some, and the grandkids are all about booze and cars and women. OTOH, a good small company can be really good. Decisions get made quickly, you know most of the people and can talk with them, much less BS, and more of a sense of purpose in what you're doing there rather than being a cog. I worked in one a few years back and loved it. They are tough to find, though, as a real 'small company' is different than a startup in that they're a bit less crazy in terms of growth.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

FredPret 3y ago

Not everything is a class dynamic. “Analyst at GS hanging out in the Hamptons” doesn’t scream working class. The CEO and analyst are both upper class, just different levels of power and seniority. That CEO is just a power-tripping asshole.

steveBK123 3y ago
Actually its extra funny because he is, objectively, a pretty bad CEO! Probably the worst GS has ever had. He will not last much longer in the seat. The big push into consumer finance has been a complete multi-billion loss making debacle under his leadership.
thegaulofthem 3y ago
They may both be richer than you (they’re certainly richer than I), but they’re definitely not of the same class.
- steveBK123 3y ago
  Yes, even well paid worker bees are still worker bees. The queen bee who owns a share of the hive, decides how many bees to hire/fire, where they work, when they work, what % of the honey to share with the worker bees, etc.. now thats a different class.
  - generic92034 3y ago
    What about managers/trainers of sports teams, if the stars of the team get a significantly higher salary? The manager/trainer might order them around, but does that make them belonging to a higher class, even if they earn way less than their "subordinates"?
    - steveBK123 3y ago
      you are misreading "owns a share of the hive, decides how many bees to hire/fire, where they work, when they work, what % of the honey to share with the worker bees" Team managers/trainers do not meet most of those criteria. At most the GM meets the majority of them. Only the team owner would meet all the criteria.

Simulacra 3y ago

and power. Being flexible and away from the office, etc. means someone is not holding power over you, i.e. requiring you to work in the office.

smeej 3y ago

So many of the comments are acting as though the underling employee actually is of a different class. I'd bet anything this young person is used to having his family name make him welcome at any table he wishes to join, even in the Hamptons. He's on the well-worn path through a brief stint as a junior analyst before he's running some bank or hedge fund somewhere and the CEO of GS hesitates to approach his table. This isn't the action of someone either boldly or naively misunderstanding his place. This is the action of someone who has grown up knowing his place is wherever he wishes it to be.

flandish 3y ago
Class is not salary or wealth it is position in the hierarchy of the means of production.
steveBK123 3y ago
You just made up a scenario that has a less than 50% probability of being true, in order to.. come to the defense of a CEO worth $100M+ ? LOL cmon man.
- ipaddr 3y ago
  I believe part of that is true based on the location and ivy league background but also the ceo has disdain for lower ranked employees appearing in his bubble and daring to appear on the same level
- triceratops 3y ago
  Idk that it was a defence of the CEO. Whatever class the analyst belongs to or thinks they belongs to, the CEO's behavior was clearly out of proportion.
- johnnyanmac 3y ago
  I don't really care too much about what class X is considered, but it sure it weird trying to frame a 23YO making 200k out of college in the same sorts of language used to describe people on minimum wage barely affording rent. Do people really think the "middle class" is dead? I feel middle class is an apt descriptor for someone who is living comfortably but also still needs to work to maintain their lifestyle.

indymike 3y ago

> The CEO was upset others were allowed to perform as if they were of the same class. I doubt it. Companies that try to hire pedigree know that they are hiring from the same class. The disdain is shock from a junior not working 20 hour days and sleeping under the desk.

polygamous_bat 3y ago
> I doubt it. Companies that try to hire pedigree know that they are hiring from the same class. Have you ever heard the term "1% of the 1%"?

kbos87 3y ago

This is so often overlooked and it's true. I've done well enough in my career that I've learned to be very cautious about how much I let others know about my standard of living. I've had experiences in the past where someone who either is or feels like they should be doing better than I am based on what little they know about me becomes indignant and acts like the natural order of things has been upended.

derefr 3y ago

Not even. He was upset because the presence of his middle-class employee in his previously-upper-class restaurant — especially with the employee visibly performing middle-class behaviors like a lack of consideration of discretion (and then not being told to sit down by the restaurant staff!) — was tarnishing the restaurant's upper-class image, i.e. the usefulness of using eating there as an upper-class shibboleth. Or, to put that another way: if the CEO can't use "come eat with me at $place" as a way to say to investors and other CEOs that he's "one of them" and can be let in on the backchannel conversations, then why is he even eating there? It's expensive and the service is awful! He'd much rather not! Now he needs to find a new place to use to signal that!

nebula8804 3y ago
I would love to hear the "backchannel" conversations happening between people like Musk, Altman, the Google guys and their cronies. It often "feels" like they are planning something nefarious longterm but I can't exactly see the big picture so im not sure.
- Macha 3y ago
  The sad thing is that when it's come out (e.g. the twitter court case), it's been shockingly vapid. And free of people challenging each other even when the ideas are so obviously bad.
  - rurp 3y ago
    Reading the text messages from that court case extinguished any questions I had about Musk and his cronies being super geniuses.
- hgsgm 3y ago
  The are just normal people but with billions of dollars to sling around, so everything is more expensive and impressive scale.
- BerislavLopac 3y ago
  I thought that it is quite obvious: a "new aristocracy", separate from the "masses" and protected by the law while not held accountable by it. It's not quite that there is a "master plan" and coordinated "conspiracy" -- it's simply that the humans have a tendency to protect themselves by isolating from "others". And when you have the wealth and power, this separation quickly becomes very unbalanced. In Middle Ages, this separation was based on ownership of land and societal structure which soon started being formalised in (both religious and secular) laws. Today, money has the same purpose (being a measure and store of wealth).

wonderwonder 3y ago

Exactly! It's like Musk demanding everyone comes into the office while he is only in the office at individual companies 1 or 2 times a week. CEO of Tesla, a publicly traded company spends all his time in the privately held offices of Twitter. Can other of his company employees work multiple jobs including their own personal company? If the answer is no then it's 100% a class thing

notfromhere 3y ago
The funniest bit to me is that Musk owning and working as the CEO of multiple companies is admitting that CEOs don’t actually do much tangible work.
- hughesjj 3y ago
  It's even funnier when the companies he has the least day to day involvement in operate better. Musk buying Twitter was the best thing to happen to the work culture of Tesla employees.
- hgsgm 3y ago
  He bought the company from Jack Dorsey, who did the absentee CEO thing first.
  - mikeevans 3y ago
    Yes, but Jack isn’t a micromanager.

casperb 3y ago

I am always surprised when I realize this in conversations with entrepreneurs. They explain something to me about how they “control” their employees, then I say it out loud that it seems weird to me and then they try to explain it to me like it has nothing to do with control or with class but that it is necessary. Sure. It’s mostly bullshit, class and mistrust.