4 ms·

Tangentially related, and given some of the debates in the comments below, I'm sure I'll be burned at the stake for this, but here I go anyway: I've given up o

by the_af 3y ago

Tangentially related, and given some of the debates in the comments below, I'm sure I'll be burned at the stake for this, but here I go anyway: I've given up on owning a real C64, just to remind me of my childhood. It's too convoluted, requires buying replacement parts, and I don't own any TV to plug it into. VICE emulation is good enough for me. But I really wanted the keyboard, which was a major part of the experience for me. Out of the box -- no soldering, not buying extra cables or expansions or add-ons -- the most feasible option for me was buying the retroremake TheC64 ("max", the full version with the working keyboard). Is it perfect? No. Is it a C64? No. It looks like one, but inside there's an ARM chip running VICE. Does it look like a convincing C64 "breadbin", and can I play every game, type BASIC programs, play with PETSCII art, even type assembly code, and generally relive my childhood? YES!

dusted 3y ago
A Pi400 is also an excellent option in my opinon. I love doing both real hardware and emulation for different purposes, I don't see anything wrong with picking either, neither or both (neither of course is the worst option ;) )
- icedchai 3y ago
  I like both. The software is so much more convenient with emulation, but seeing the real hardware feels like it takes you back in time...
  - the_af 3y ago
    TheC64 goes a long way into fooling you. Barring minor details (especially in the connectors and peripherals) it looks like a real C64! It delivers most of the nostalgic experience for me.
- the_af 3y ago
  I considered the Pi400 but, like I said, the C64 keyboard was a big deal to me. Otherwise I would just use VICE on my laptop :) Yes, I know: you can get custom keyboards, or print labels and stick them on a PC keyboard, or 3D print a case with a working keyboard: all of that is either more involved, more expensive, or fiddlier than what I wanted. I wanted an out of the box experience with a working replica of the keyboard, complete with PETSCII symbols on the key caps, and TheC64 delivers just that :)
gmerc 3y ago
MiSTER is pretty much a perfect replacement.
- the_af 3y ago
  Curious: does MiSTER have a fully working C64 keyboard lookalike with no extra work that I must do, out of the box? If not, it's not what I was looking for :)
  - gmerc 3y ago
    I did see a project to convert one of those remade c64 boxes into a mister case somwhere. let me google … oh wait, google is useless now.
II2II 3y ago
I don't think anyone will burn you at the stake! Real hardware is great for diehard enthusiasts, for those wanting to use old peripherals, and for people wanting to play with electronics. Emulation is great for nearly everyone else.
jwr 3y ago
I'll plug the Ultimate 64 (https://ultimate64.com/Ultimate-64-Elite https://ultimate64.com/Ultimate-64-Elite) — it's a hardware-emulated C64 that you place inside your breadbin case. It works unbelievably well and is a great modern replacement with a lot of convenience added. For example, you don't have to deal with weird PSUs (12V runs it just fine), you get a HDMI output with sound (can be from a real SID!), and the HDMI out has no delay. That's a big deal: all the emulators normally use framebuffers, so you get a delay, none of the games were built for it. What I find great is that you can plug in a USB stick with all the C64 games ever made and just load them quickly up using the Ultimate 64 built-in software. I have both "real" C64s and the Ultimate 64, but I only use the Ultimate these days. It's just easier.
- the_af 3y ago
  Thanks! It looks awesome and better but also more expensive (and slightly less "out of the box") than TheC64, at least when I got mine.
- reaperducer 3y ago
  The problem is that the Ultimate 64 has been out of stock for a very long time. I check every few months, and have never seen it available. And even when it might be available, you can get two or three real C-64s from eBay for the same price.
  - MagerValp 3y ago
    Sure, but add to that a modern storage solution (ideally a 1541Ultimate 2+), a lag free scaler (like the RetroTink 2X), and a modern power supply. The U64 comes with all of that built in.
300bps 3y ago
It's really awesome how different people are able to engage in this hobby with different requirements. For me, working on a real 64 is essential but I don't care about disk drives at all. So a Commodore 64 + Ultimate II+ (or pi1541) is a great combination. I love being able to use real 64 joysticks with no lag. Keeping the hardware going is half the fun - I have replacement chips for everything on the board, diagnostic carts and have enjoyed picking up soldering again. For Assembly language programming though, Visual Studio Code + Kick Assembler + Vice + C64 Debugger all the way!! Makes the development and debugging process completely seamless.
macjohnmcc 3y ago
You can also use TheC64 (Max) as a USB keyboard to the PC to use in Vice if you decide you want the keyboard and want to take advantage of some of the functionality of the emulators. I found a page that shows how to add a USB connector to the Max to allow this.
- the_af 3y ago
  Never thought of this. Looks useful! I will look it up.
flyinghamster 3y ago
Much like how I've gotten onto a PDP-11 kick - yeah, it would be neat to have my own 11/70, but the power and space requirements would be insane, I'd have to track down rare and expensive pieces, and I don't have quite the skill set to debug/repair old hardware to the component level. SIMH it is (and it has a zillion other emulators as well). Modern hardware can emulate an 11 much faster than any real one ever built. RSTS/E installs in seconds when your "disk" is NVMe and you don't have to wait for a DECwriter II console at 30 cps.
- bitwize 3y ago
  You may wish to consider the PiDP-11, a frame that replicates the PDP-11's blinkenlight panel, into which a Raspberry Pi running SIMH or similar can be installed. Attach a terminal with a USB-to-serial adapter, and the experience is complete, without the drain on power, space, time/effort, or money. It's like THEC64 for the DEC mini world.
bitwize 3y ago
I'm also a THEC64 owner, and I call it "retrocomputing on easy mode". That's a good thing! It offers a good-enough simulacrum of what the C64 experience was like. The breadbin case with original-layout keyboard, which feels plausibly like one of the keyboards that shipped on actual C64s (there were a few different ones), really put THEC64 over for me. And it just works with modern equipment like HDMI displays and USB controllers. It's a great way to introduce kids to the way we computed back in the before times.
TacticalCoder 3y ago
> I've given up on owning a real C64 I can understand that... I'm lucky in that my very own C128, after nearly 40 years, still works. I think the C128 is a bit easier to get going because the PSU are of much better quality than the C64's PSUs and IIUC the C128's PSU is less likely to destroy the computer should it malfunction. I wrote it recently in another thread here on HN: I've got both original PCBs from the eighties and a Raspberry Pi in a vintage arcade cab and it's pretty much giving identical results (except for the boot procedure). Emulation may not be the real thing but it really became close enough. We have options and we should be happy about it. And as my electronic and soldering skills are really mediocre, I fear the day where my C128 shall eventually give up.
technothrasher 3y ago
I enjoy owning the fourth earliest serial number C64 registered on the C64 registry, and last I tried it still worked. But honestly I wouldn't ever really think of actually using it or any of the handful of others I have. Whenever I'm in the mood to play, I use an emulator. And this basically goes for all the old nostalgic hardware I've got. For kicks I booted up an old Sun 3/80 I picked up a bit ago. After replacing the failed hard drive with an SSD on an adapter board, figuring out how to regenerate the boot info on a replacement of the dead battery backed RAM chip, and getting it to actually net boot off a Linux host, I realized SunOS 4.1.1 is a lot more of a pain in the ass than I remembered from back in the day. It was an amusing adventure, but it did make me think twice about trying to boot up my old SGI Indigo.

by the_af 3y ago

dusted 3y ago

A Pi400 is also an excellent option in my opinon. I love doing both real hardware and emulation for different purposes, I don't see anything wrong with picking either, neither or both (neither of course is the worst option ;) )

icedchai 3y ago
I like both. The software is so much more convenient with emulation, but seeing the real hardware feels like it takes you back in time...
- the_af 3y ago
  TheC64 goes a long way into fooling you. Barring minor details (especially in the connectors and peripherals) it looks like a real C64! It delivers most of the nostalgic experience for me.
the_af 3y ago
I considered the Pi400 but, like I said, the C64 keyboard was a big deal to me. Otherwise I would just use VICE on my laptop :) Yes, I know: you can get custom keyboards, or print labels and stick them on a PC keyboard, or 3D print a case with a working keyboard: all of that is either more involved, more expensive, or fiddlier than what I wanted. I wanted an out of the box experience with a working replica of the keyboard, complete with PETSCII symbols on the key caps, and TheC64 delivers just that :)

gmerc 3y ago

MiSTER is pretty much a perfect replacement.

the_af 3y ago
Curious: does MiSTER have a fully working C64 keyboard lookalike with no extra work that I must do, out of the box? If not, it's not what I was looking for :)
- gmerc 3y ago
  I did see a project to convert one of those remade c64 boxes into a mister case somwhere. let me google … oh wait, google is useless now.

II2II 3y ago

I don't think anyone will burn you at the stake! Real hardware is great for diehard enthusiasts, for those wanting to use old peripherals, and for people wanting to play with electronics. Emulation is great for nearly everyone else.

jwr 3y ago

I'll plug the Ultimate 64 (https://ultimate64.com/Ultimate-64-Elite https://ultimate64.com/Ultimate-64-Elite) — it's a hardware-emulated C64 that you place inside your breadbin case. It works unbelievably well and is a great modern replacement with a lot of convenience added. For example, you don't have to deal with weird PSUs (12V runs it just fine), you get a HDMI output with sound (can be from a real SID!), and the HDMI out has no delay. That's a big deal: all the emulators normally use framebuffers, so you get a delay, none of the games were built for it. What I find great is that you can plug in a USB stick with all the C64 games ever made and just load them quickly up using the Ultimate 64 built-in software. I have both "real" C64s and the Ultimate 64, but I only use the Ultimate these days. It's just easier.

the_af 3y ago
Thanks! It looks awesome and better but also more expensive (and slightly less "out of the box") than TheC64, at least when I got mine.
reaperducer 3y ago
The problem is that the Ultimate 64 has been out of stock for a very long time. I check every few months, and have never seen it available. And even when it might be available, you can get two or three real C-64s from eBay for the same price.
- MagerValp 3y ago
  Sure, but add to that a modern storage solution (ideally a 1541Ultimate 2+), a lag free scaler (like the RetroTink 2X), and a modern power supply. The U64 comes with all of that built in.

300bps 3y ago

It's really awesome how different people are able to engage in this hobby with different requirements. For me, working on a real 64 is essential but I don't care about disk drives at all. So a Commodore 64 + Ultimate II+ (or pi1541) is a great combination. I love being able to use real 64 joysticks with no lag. Keeping the hardware going is half the fun - I have replacement chips for everything on the board, diagnostic carts and have enjoyed picking up soldering again. For Assembly language programming though, Visual Studio Code + Kick Assembler + Vice + C64 Debugger all the way!! Makes the development and debugging process completely seamless.

macjohnmcc 3y ago

You can also use TheC64 (Max) as a USB keyboard to the PC to use in Vice if you decide you want the keyboard and want to take advantage of some of the functionality of the emulators. I found a page that shows how to add a USB connector to the Max to allow this.

the_af 3y ago
Never thought of this. Looks useful! I will look it up.

flyinghamster 3y ago

Much like how I've gotten onto a PDP-11 kick - yeah, it would be neat to have my own 11/70, but the power and space requirements would be insane, I'd have to track down rare and expensive pieces, and I don't have quite the skill set to debug/repair old hardware to the component level. SIMH it is (and it has a zillion other emulators as well). Modern hardware can emulate an 11 much faster than any real one ever built. RSTS/E installs in seconds when your "disk" is NVMe and you don't have to wait for a DECwriter II console at 30 cps.

bitwize 3y ago
You may wish to consider the PiDP-11, a frame that replicates the PDP-11's blinkenlight panel, into which a Raspberry Pi running SIMH or similar can be installed. Attach a terminal with a USB-to-serial adapter, and the experience is complete, without the drain on power, space, time/effort, or money. It's like THEC64 for the DEC mini world.

bitwize 3y ago

I'm also a THEC64 owner, and I call it "retrocomputing on easy mode". That's a good thing! It offers a good-enough simulacrum of what the C64 experience was like. The breadbin case with original-layout keyboard, which feels plausibly like one of the keyboards that shipped on actual C64s (there were a few different ones), really put THEC64 over for me. And it just works with modern equipment like HDMI displays and USB controllers. It's a great way to introduce kids to the way we computed back in the before times.

TacticalCoder 3y ago

> I've given up on owning a real C64 I can understand that... I'm lucky in that my very own C128, after nearly 40 years, still works. I think the C128 is a bit easier to get going because the PSU are of much better quality than the C64's PSUs and IIUC the C128's PSU is less likely to destroy the computer should it malfunction. I wrote it recently in another thread here on HN: I've got both original PCBs from the eighties and a Raspberry Pi in a vintage arcade cab and it's pretty much giving identical results (except for the boot procedure). Emulation may not be the real thing but it really became close enough. We have options and we should be happy about it. And as my electronic and soldering skills are really mediocre, I fear the day where my C128 shall eventually give up.

technothrasher 3y ago

I enjoy owning the fourth earliest serial number C64 registered on the C64 registry, and last I tried it still worked. But honestly I wouldn't ever really think of actually using it or any of the handful of others I have. Whenever I'm in the mood to play, I use an emulator. And this basically goes for all the old nostalgic hardware I've got. For kicks I booted up an old Sun 3/80 I picked up a bit ago. After replacing the failed hard drive with an SSD on an adapter board, figuring out how to regenerate the boot info on a replacement of the dead battery backed RAM chip, and getting it to actually net boot off a Linux host, I realized SunOS 4.1.1 is a lot more of a pain in the ass than I remembered from back in the day. It was an amusing adventure, but it did make me think twice about trying to boot up my old SGI Indigo.